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270374 dks <dks@t...> 2020‑04‑04 boxing of planes
Looking through my woodies, I came across a nice pair of snipe bills stamped J.
Miller 58 Grainger St. I was surprised to see the boxing is at right angles to
the length of the plane. As might be expected, the boxing has shrunk a little,
but there is otherwise no damage. I am wondering how unusual this is, as I don't
recall seeing planes with cross-grain orientation of the boxing.

Don, in preventive self-separation
270375 Bill Ghio 2020‑04‑04 Re: boxing of planes
> On Apr 4, 2020, at 12:39 PM, dks  wrote:
> 
> 
> Looking through my woodies, I came across a nice pair of snipe bills stamped
J. Miller 58 Grainger St. I was surprised to see the boxing is at right angles
to the length of the plane. As might be expected, the boxing has shrunk a
little, but there is otherwise no damage. I am wondering how unusual this is, as
I don't recall seeing planes with cross-grain orientation of the boxing.
> 

Standard procedure. The grain of the boxing should be at a slight angle such
that it slopes, at the top where it is inserted, towards the rear. This puts an
almost end grain against the molding being struck to prevent wear to te plane.

If this is the plane sole moving —>____________, then this is the boxing
\\\\\\\\\\\\\\

Bill
270376 "dks@t..." <dks@t...> 2020‑04‑04 Re: boxing of planes
Standard but not universal. I had a quick look at 18 boxed planes. Twelve are
clearly as you describe, set diagonally to the sole.. Two more may be, but are
too grundgy and small for me to say with confidence. One has grain that runs
parallel to the body. But the two snipe bills? Their boxing is definitely square
to the sole of the plane. So how unusual is that? 2 of 18 in this little sample
hoard, a pair by one maker.

FWIW
Don, still wondering how unusual it is

Stay home and save lives!

----- Original Message -----
From: "Bill Ghio" 
To: "dks" 
Cc: "OldTools List" 
Sent: Saturday, April 4, 2020 11:57:19 AM
Subject: Re: [OldTools] boxing of planes

> On Apr 4, 2020, at 12:39 PM, dks  wrote:
> 
> 
> Looking through my woodies, I came across a nice pair of snipe bills stamped
J. Miller 58 Grainger St. I was surprised to see the boxing is at right angles
to the length of the plane. As might be expected, the boxing has shrunk a
little, but there is otherwise no damage. I am wondering how unusual this is, as
I don't recall seeing planes with cross-grain orientation of the boxing.
> 

Standard procedure. The grain of the boxing should be at a slight angle such
that it slopes, at the top where it is inserted, towards the rear. This puts an
almost end grain against the molding being struck to prevent wear to te plane.

If this is the plane sole moving —>____________, then this is the boxing
\\\\\\\\\\\\\\

Bill
270377 gary may 2020‑04‑04 Re: boxing of planes
Don---
  When you say 'square' to the sole of the plane, do you mean 'perpendicular' or
'parallel'? Makes a huge difference, I believe. Boxwood's very stable, but still
shrinks a bit across the grain, and not at all---AFIK--- 'along' the grain
lengthwise. So, if the boxing's grain is parallel to its housing, there's a less
of a differential, I surmise. At hand here are two snipe bills and a couple of
fillisters, all laid in as Bill describes. A 'stick and rabbet' I've managed to
tame is boxed with all piece's grains running parallel to each other. There are
more I could look at, but they're quite out of reach...
  Seems like it might be the case that *any* boxing is better than no boxing.
                                          
                   Best to all galoots, everywhere, gam in OlyWA/USA


How horrible it is to have so many people killed!---And what a blessing one
cares for none of them!
Jane Austen 

    On Saturday, April 4, 2020, 12:58:24 PM PDT, dks@t...  wrote:  
 
 
Standard but not universal. I had a quick look at 18 boxed planes. Twelve are
clearly as you describe, set diagonally to the sole.. Two more may be, but are
too grundgy and small for me to say with confidence. One has grain that runs
parallel to the body. But the two snipe bills? Their boxing is definitely square
to the sole of the plane. So how unusual is that? 2 of 18 in this little sample
hoard, a pair by one maker.

FWIW
Don, still wondering how unusual it is

Stay home and save lives!

----- Original Message -----
From: "Bill Ghio" 
To: "dks" 
Cc: "OldTools List" 
Sent: Saturday, April 4, 2020 11:57:19 AM
Subject: Re: [OldTools] boxing of planes

> On Apr 4, 2020, at 12:39 PM, dks  wrote:
> 
> 
> Looking through my woodies, I came across a nice pair of snipe bills stamped
J. Miller 58 Grainger St. I was surprised to see the boxing is at right angles
to the length of the plane. As might be expected, the boxing has shrunk a
little, but there is otherwise no damage. I am wondering how unusual this is, as
I don't recall seeing planes with cross-grain orientation of the boxing.
> 

Standard procedure. The grain of the boxing should be at a slight angle such
that it slopes, at the top where it is inserted, towards the rear. This puts an
almost end grain against the molding being struck to prevent wear to te plane.

If this is the plane sole moving —>____________, then this is the boxing
\\\\\\\\\\\\\\

Bill
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OldTools@s...
270378 Claudio DeLorenzi <claudio@d...> 2020‑04‑04 Re: boxing of planes
Re boxing
Just checked a couple boxes of woodies (30 units).  Most of the better (yer
name brand planes) ones have the grain either perpendicular or at a  angle
up to 45 degrees (more or less rubbing on end grain).
  Some I can't tell because of grunge or patina or whatever we're calling
it today.


Bottom line:  in agreement with the other posts)

Cheers from now sunny and warm Waterloo
-- Claudio (tired from washing an entire winter's worth of sand grunge and
salt from our vehicles, now ready for a cool beverage on -gasp- the patio,
sans snow!)
270379 "dks@t..." <dks@t...> 2020‑04‑04 Re: boxing of planes
Do you mean 'perpendicular to the sole'? 

Don 



From: "Claudio DeLorenzi"  
To: "gary may"  
Cc: "Bill Ghio" , "Don Schwartz" , "OldTools List"

Sent: Saturday, April 4, 2020 2:53:44 PM 
Subject: Re: [OldTools] boxing of planes 

Re boxing 
Just checked a couple boxes of woodies (30 units). Most of the better (yer name
brand planes) ones have the grain either perpendicular or at a angle up to 45
degrees (more or less rubbing on end grain).
Some I can't tell because of grunge or patina or whatever we're calling it
today.


Bottom line: in agreement with the other posts) 

Cheers from now sunny and warm Waterloo 
-- Claudio (tired from washing an entire winter's worth of sand grunge and salt
from our vehicles, now ready for a cool beverage on -gasp- the patio, sans
snow!)
270380 Spike Cornelius <spikethebike@c...> 2020‑04‑04 Re: boxing of planes
I just checked my woodies and I can’t tell which direction the grain of the
boxing goes!
  Best, Spike
Sent from my refuge
270381 Bill Ghio 2020‑04‑04 Re: boxing of planes
If the boxing has shrunk in relation to the length of the plane it is inserted
vertically.

Sent from my iPad
270389 Ed Minch <ruby1638@a...> 2020‑04‑05 Re: Boxwood and Box Trees ( Was: boxing of planes)
Twice I have had the good fortune to run across boxwwod

First was during a visit to Annapolis MD, home to a whole bunch of 18th houses.
A famous one is the Hammond Harwood house, a beutifully symetrical Georgeian
showpiece.  We vbisitd about 10 years ago qnd as we approached I saw that a crew
was busy cutting down some boxwood at the front door.  I asked what wa sup and
they said that these were planted in the 30’s, but current documentation shows
that there were no foundtion plantings.  I asked if they would save me some - I
pointed to what I wanted - and while we visited the interior they stacked my up
a large armload.  I still have 1/2 of it left.  The biggest piece was perhaps
3-1/2” and because it is not very sgraight, it is hard to get anything out of.
Here are photos of the house with and without my boxwood - click right and left

https://www.flickr.com/photos/ruby1638/49737809131/in/dateposted-public/

The second place was  my next door neighbor's.  Their house was built as early
as 1795 (at least a part of it).  They took a couple of boxwoods down perhaps 4
years ago and I got more - though not very big.

It has mostly turned into tool handles, toys and some guitar inlays - it stays
pale - but it is very dreamy and creamy to work with.  Some shows no visible
grain.  What did the boxwood trees look like that allowed for those rules made
150 years ago that were a foot long and have stayed straight?

Ed Minch
270390 Bill Ghio 2020‑04‑05 Re: Boxwood and Box Trees ( Was: boxing of planes)
> On Apr 5, 2020, at 6:00 AM, Ed Minch  wrote:
> 

>   What did the boxwood trees look like that allowed for those rules made 150
years ago that were a foot long and have stayed straight?


Traditionally it was Turkish Boxwood that was used. Supposedly Turkish Boxwood
grows bigger than English. A Google search turned up this picture:

https://depositphotos.com/180721170/stock-photo-boxwood-forest-rize-tu
rkey.html

Bill
270393 Ed Minch <ruby1638@a...> 2020‑04‑05 Re: Boxwood and Box Trees ( Was: boxing of planes)
A regular old tree looking object

Ed Minch
270406 Chuck Taylor 2020‑04‑06 Re: Boxwood and Box Trees ( Was: boxing of planes)
Gentle Galoots,

Did someone say "boxwood"? Here is a picture of a plane I made from boxwood
during a 1-week plane-making class at http://www.insidepassage.ca back in 2008.
It is a Krenov-style plane, the 2nd one I made that week. The first was a
smoother made from Jatoba. I posted pictures of that one at the time.

The school had a bunch of different kinds of wood available for making
additional planes, including a hunk of boxwood that looked good to me.

https:
//www.dropbox.com/s/38wa2ctdbmkpd8a/BoxwoodPlane.jpg?dl=0

You shouldn't have to sign in to see that photo.

Dimensions are 17" long, 2" wide, and 1-7/8" tall. The Hock iron is 1-1/4" wide.
The Krenov-trained instructor called it a jointer. It is smaller than a
traditional jointer, but works well for edge-joining components of small- to
medium-sized boxes and cabinets.

It is probably Turkish boxwood. The wood was a pleasure to work and planed like
a dream. A little pricey though.

Cheers,
Chuck Taylor
hunkered down north of Seattle USA
270407 Ed Minch <ruby1638@a...> 2020‑04‑06 Re: Boxwood and Box Trees ( Was: boxing of planes)
> 
> The school had a bunch of different kinds of wood available for making
additional planes, including a hunk of boxwood that looked good to me.
> 
> http
s://www.dropbox.com/s/38wa2ctdbmkpd8a/BoxwoodPlane.jpg?dl=0 <https://www.dropbox.c
om/s/38wa2ctdbmkpd8a/BoxwoodPlane.jpg?dl=0>

Chuck

A thing of beauty.  Your joints are invisible.  Is it as stable as one imagines?

Ed Minch
270409 gary may 2020‑04‑06 Re: Boxwood and Box Trees ( Was: boxing of planes)
Jeez Chuck, that's beautiful.  
  Say, I was just using my tiny slick with its gorgeous apple handle made years
ago by you. Best money I never spent!
   keep the faith, old friend..yr pl gam in OlyWA 


How horrible it is to have so many people killed!---And what a blessing one
cares for none of them!
Jane Austen 

    On Sunday, April 5, 2020, 08:44:21 PM PDT, Chuck Taylor via OldTools
 wrote:
 
 Gentle Galoots,

Did someone say "boxwood"? Here is a picture of a plane I made from boxwood
during a 1-week plane-making class at http://www.insidepassage.ca back in 2008.
It is a Krenov-style plane, the 2nd one I made that week. The first was a
smoother made from Jatoba. I posted pictures of that one at the time.

The school had a bunch of different kinds of wood available for making
additional planes, including a hunk of boxwood that looked good to me.

https:
//www.dropbox.com/s/38wa2ctdbmkpd8a/BoxwoodPlane.jpg?dl=0

You shouldn't have to sign in to see that photo.

Dimensions are 17" long, 2" wide, and 1-7/8" tall. The Hock iron is 1-1/4" wide.
The Krenov-trained instructor called it a jointer. It is smaller than a
traditional jointer, but works well for edge-joining components of small- to
medium-sized boxes and cabinets.

It is probably Turkish boxwood. The wood was a pleasure to work and planed like
a dream. A little pricey though.

Cheers,
Chuck Taylor
hunkered down north of Seattle USA




------------------------------------------------------------------------
OldTools is a mailing list catering to the interests of hand tool
aficionados, both collectors and users, to discuss the history, usage,
value, location, availability, collectibility, and restoration of
traditional handtools, especially woodworking tools.

To change your subscription options:
https://old
tools.swingleydev.com/mailman/listinfo/oldtools

To read the FAQ:
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OldTools archive: https://swingleydev.com/
ot/

OldTools@s...
270429 Chuck Taylor 2020‑04‑07 Re: Boxwood and Box Trees ( Was: boxing of planes)
Ed Minch wrote: 

> > 
> > The school had a bunch of different kinds of wood available for making
additional planes,
> > including a hunk of boxwood that looked good to me.
> >
> > ht
tps://www.dropbox.com/s/38wa2ctdbmkpd8a/BoxwoodPlane.jpg?dl=0

> A thing of beauty.  Your joints are invisible.  Is it as stable as one
imagines?

Stable indeed. Still flat after a dozen years. It's a really fine-grained wood,
slick and smooth.

I ran the boxwood over a tailed jointer to begin with, but that left a rippled
surface. I think the jointer blades kinda bounced off. Then I took one pass with
my Jatoba Krenov smoother with a Hock iron and all the ripples were gone. Funny-
looking shaving:  rippled on the top, smooth on the bottom.

Thanks for the kind words.

Chuck
270431 Ed Minch <ruby1638@a...> 2020‑04‑07 Re: Boxwood and Box Trees ( Was: boxing of planes)
Did you use the blunt chisel technique on the wedge?

Ed MInch
270434 Claudio DeLorenzi <claudio@d...> 2020‑04‑07 Re: Boxwood and Box Trees ( Was: boxing of planes)
Bill Carter's techniques?  His videos are worth watching.

-- Claudio
270435 Chuck Taylor 2020‑04‑07 Re: Boxwood and Box Trees ( Was: boxing of planes)
Ed, Claudio, and other GGs,

Ed asked:

> Did you use the blunt chisel technique on the wedge?

Claudio asked:

> Bill Carter's techniques?  His videos are worth watching.

Both were referring to the build of the boxwood jointer plane I showed in an
earlier posting.

The answer to both questions is "No." 

I was taught by Robert Van Norman, who in turn was taught directly by James
Krenov at the College of the Redwoods. We flattened the bed itself using a
Stanley #80 scraper plane before the plane was glued up. Robert wouldn't let us
go on to the next step until the bed passed his inspection. The wedge was cut to
a 1:10 slope. The bottom of the wedge was IIRC flattened by running it over a
smoothing plane held upside down in a vice. The pivoting pin with a "D" shaped
profile was carefully installed and tuned to be exactly parallel to the bed.
Final fitting was between the top of the wedge and the underside of the pin. I
don't remember exactly how we did it (it has been 12 years now), but it did
involve the usual checking for high spots and taking them down. We probably used
card scrapers, but Carter's blunt chisel technique would have been a natural for
that job.

Robert said that "Jim", as he called his mentor, insisted that, after fitting
and before gluing up joints, the wood must be wiped clean with acetone.
Especially tropical hardwoods. After that we used ordinary white glue and plenty
of clamps.

The round pivots of the pivoting pin were cut by saw, chisel, and eye. We used a
horizontal boring machine for placing the holes for the pin in precisely the
right position. The various pieces of the body were aligned using dowels and a
horizontal boring machine. Krenov describes this technique in "The Art of
Cabinetmaking."

Everyone else in the class used a tailed router to excavate the recess in the
bed for the cap iron screw, but I insisted on doing it using hand tools. :-)

It was a 1-week class, and on Thursday afternoon we had a live conference call
with Krenov. (No videoconferencing back then.) He expounded on some technique
and then we got to ask him questions. It was a fun week.

Cheers,
Chuck Taylor
north of Seattle USA
270436 Claudio DeLorenzi <claudio@d...> 2020‑04‑07 Re: Boxwood and Box Trees ( Was: boxing of planes)
Re boxwood plane
That's great, sounds like an enjoyable course!
 I have 3 of Krenov's books plus a few other plane making texts (Finck,
Dunbar, Weygers, Kingshott, etc )
So you didn't use a laminated build, you cut it out of the solid?  I love
the look of traditional (not laminated) planes.
I'm interested in the small mitre planes that Bill Carter makes from the
brass backs of old Sheffield backsaws.  Quite lovely.
Claudio
270441 Chuck Taylor 2020‑04‑07 Re: Boxwood and Box Trees ( Was: boxing of planes)
Claudio, you wrote:

> Re boxwood plane
>
> ... I have 3 of Krenov's books plus a few other plane making texts (Finck,
Dunbar,
> Weygers, Kingshott, etc )
> So you didn't use a laminated build, you cut it out of the solid? 

No, I did use a laminated build, as shown in David Finck's book. That's how I
was able to use a Stanley #80 cabinet scraper to flatten the bed.  David Finck
was another of James Krenov's students at College of the Redwoods.

> I love the look of traditional (not laminated) planes. 

I like them both. A laminated plane can be quite solid and a well-made one can
perform quite well. As Ed pointed out, it's quite hard to see the seams, even in
person.

Cheers,
Chuck
270442 Ed Minch <ruby1638@a...> 2020‑04‑07 Re: Boxwood and Box Trees ( Was: boxing of planes)
Yes - I have used it a couple of timw on guitars - just thas afternnon as a
matter of fact.  Cross grain on mahogany to fit a neck tenon

Ed Minch
270443 Ed Minch <ruby1638@a...> 2020‑04‑07 Re: Boxwood and Box Trees ( Was: boxing of planes)
Thanks Chuck - sounds like fun

When gluing together tha top and back of a guitar, the wood is less than 1/8”
thick, so very important to get a good joint.  It is the practice of most to
wipe the edge of heavy exotic woods with acetone before gluing.

Ed Minch

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