I dunno, I sort of like my rubber band thing.   It had a sort of panache.

Mike Siemsen wrote:
> Tom Opfell wrote:
> --------that the nib was originally developed to "catch the eye" of 
> the operator seems to me to be the most valid that I have yet to hear, 
> although clearly as time progressed the "nib" was relegated to 
> ornamentation. ---------
>
> Nibblers, Nigglers, Galoots
> Doesn't ornamentation catch the eye of the prospective tool buyer 
> standing at the shop window?  and isn't marketing a function?  Perhaps 
> a very good saw maker put nibs on his saws so that his customers (and 
> prospective customers) would recognize his products. Over time other 
> makers followed suit, copying his "trade dress" until it became common.
>
> The thrashing of a deceased equine is not as interesting as 
> speculating to what led to its' demise
>
> I assume that beating a dead horse was to get the beast up and moving 
> again, in which case this topic is not a dead horse but an overworked 
> one, probably rented.
>
> Mike
>
------------------------------------------------------------------------

>  about 20 years now and own over 1000.

 Say Tom This is quite the confession! He hee Anything else you want to
 get off your chest?? Kidding!!

Welcome aboard the porch! There could be some cider left down the end
and I believe there is a loose cork in a jug at the other. Put your feet
up. Stay awhile. yours, Scott

*******************************
   Scott Grandstaff Box 409 Happy Camp, Ca 96039 scottg@s...
   http://www.snowcrest.net/kitty/sgrandstaff/
   http://www.snowcrest.net/kitty/hpages/index.html

------------------------------------------------------------------------

Hi,

My name is Tom Opfell. I have had an interest in and collected handsaws for 
about 20 years now and own over 1000.

I believe that the actual purpose of the saw nib was, as Sandy Moss 
correctly stated, was to warn the operator that the end of the blade was 
near to prevent the saw from freeing itself from the kerf and perhaps 
injuring the hand holding the board. In his book "The Carpenter's Tool 
Chest" published in 1933, Thomas Hibben's states "the little nipple on the 
top of our saws has survived from the days when saws were pulled. Such a 
mark would serve to catch the carpenter's eye as he pulled back on the saw 
so that he stopped his pull before the blade came out of the cut."

Disston literature published circa 1900, states that the nib is purely 
decorative, serves to brake up the straight line of the back and serves no 
useful purpose. This would indicate that by this time most saw makers had 
forgotten the original purpose of the nib and retained it mearly as a 
decorative element of the past that gave the buyer sense of tradition and 
high quality. Disston was one of the last of the American Saw makers to 
retain the "nib" on it's "old line" models up until 1928 when the company 
redesigned it's product line.

The "skewback" handsaw, patented by Henry Disston in 1874, never had a "nib" 
because the curved shape of the back was not only a decorative element in 
itself, but was also a radical departure from the traditional look and was 
intended to have a "new" and "modern" look. The "nib" would have looked 
totally out of place on such a modern handsaw.

The carpenter's folklore tales of the nib being there to secure a leather 
(or string) strap of a wooden blade guard, using the nib to start a cut or 
to cut through nails, or the owner of a new saw snapping off the nib to test 
it's temper, etc., were apparently believed by about 25% of the saw owners 
of the late 19th- early 20th centuries, judging by the number of saws seen 
with their nibs broken off.

I would also like to comment on the other saw topic of late, "16th Century 
Handsaws". Most of the saws in use by carpenters and cabinetmakers in Europe 
at this time were frame or bow saws. This would encompass a wide variety of 
shapes and sizes but could be defined as being a narrow web(blade) held in 
tension by a wooden frame of some sort. Handsaws (thin metal plate with a 
handle on one end) have been known since the bronze age, but were much less 
commonly used than the frame saw in the 16th Century.

Paintings, drawings, etchings, etc. of the 14th- 16th Centuries show 
handsaws looking somewhat like a toothed sword or a long knife with a 
straight handle and often a curved blade anywhere from 10" to 50" in length.

Circa the 17" Century these sword like handsaws began to evolve with a 
curved or "L" shaped handle, with the curved handles resembling the handle 
of an umbrella and the "L' shaped handles often have a small bump (horn) in 
the corner near the top of the operators hand. The blades were fairly narrow 
and usually had a tang that the handle was driven on to. The handles were 
often made from bone, horn, or wood.

The modern handsaw began to take shape in the 18th Century with the "T" 
shaped handle taking on more of the form that we now call an "open handle", 
that was becoming more gracefully carved with three horns. These saws would 
look more like what we know as a "table or pruning" saw today. Also after 
1700, rivets began to replace the tang for holding the handle in place. 
After 1750 when cast steel began to replace iron, the blades were becoming 
wider, more often cutting on the push stroke, and the larger "closed' handle 
started to become popular. By about 1780 the flat head split screw started 
to became popular.

Most people tend to date their saw much earlier than it's actual age. Very 
few pre 1800 saws exist today. Saw makers continued to produce "old style" 
models 100 or more years after "new styles" had come in vouge. Some English 
makers continued to produce saws that were nearly identical to some 16th and 
17th Century carpenter handsaws up until the 1850's and sold them as pruning 
saws.

Please consider all dates given as general guidelines and try to realize 
that two saws that look as if they could have been made 200 years apart, 
also could have been produced on the same day in 1840. The best way to date 
an early handsaw is with an established maker's mark. Without that it could 
be anybodies guess and value will be determined by the overall appearance of 
the tool.

Tom Opfell

------------------------------------------------------------------------

Man I think it's really really sad that people hardly even remember what 
the art of decoration in a life was all about.

  Appliances, computers, most furniture, most cars, even many of our 
very homes............  Plain and flat and shapeless and sorely lacking 
in even the slightest trace of grace.  Elegant as a cereal box and less 
shapely than a bag of grain.
  Our ancestors would consider much of the way many of us live, to 
resemble a prison.  Thin and cold.
 
 And its been so far removed and forgotten,  here we have perfectly 
intelligent people speculating that a lovely piece of whimsey and pizazz 
must surely have had to serve another purpose. 
 
  I guess then, that the wheat carving, curving spurs and swooping lines 
to the handle , delicately embossed medallion and 4 or 5 screws when 3 
would do,  was all some kind of plan to gunsight the target line?  
  sigh

 Life is hard. Every little comfort, is comfort.
 yours, Scott
 
 
 

-- 
******************************* 
   Scott Grandstaff
   Box 409 Happy Camp, Ca  96039
   scottg@s...
   http://www.snowcrest.net/kitty/sgrandstaff/
   http://www.snowcrest.net/kitty/hpages/index.html

------------------------------------------------------------------------

On Jul 11, 2008, at 5:11 PM, Tom Opfell wrote:
> I believe that the actual purpose of the saw nib was, as Sandy Moss  
> correctly stated, was to warn the operator that the end of the  
> blade was near to prevent the saw from freeing itself from the kerf  
> and perhaps injuring the hand holding the board. In his book "The  
> Carpenter's Tool Chest" published in 1933, Thomas Hibben's states  
> "the little nipple on the top of our saws has survived from the  
> days when saws were pulled. Such a mark would serve to catch the  
> carpenter's eye as he pulled back on the saw so that he stopped his  
> pull before the blade came out of the cut."

	I share the skepticism of Mr. Reynolds and others regarding the  
explanation advanced by Thomas Hibbens, and I wonder what his source  
might have been, beyond being a member of club of "the nib MUST have  
a practical, functional purpose, so I'll invent one."  And if "saws  
were pulled" means that they cut on the pull stroke, just when was  
that, in Europe?
	I don't have 1,000 handsaws, but I do use my handsaws, including  
several with their original nibs.  I watch the cutting line, not the  
top edge of the blade, and like others have said, the saw is moving  
too fast to see the nib in action.  "Catch the eye," indeed.  Anyone  
who uses strokes so long that he pulls the saw out the top of the  
kerf needs to improve his technique, I think.  I will go further, and  
suggest that the idea that the sawyer watched the rising of the nib  
in order to avoid pulling the blade out of the kerf, is insulting to  
the many saw users who preceded us.  They had more sense that that  
then, and we ought to have more sense than that now.
		Tom Holloway

------------------------------------------------------------------------

On Jul 11, 2008, at 8:11 PM, Tom Opfell wrote:

>
> I believe that the actual purpose of the saw nib was, as Sandy Moss 
> correctly stated, was to warn the operator that the end of the blade 
> was near to prevent the saw from freeing itself from the kerf and 
> perhaps injuring the hand holding the board. In his book "The 
> Carpenter's Tool Chest" published in 1933, Thomas Hibben's states "the 
> little nipple on the top of our saws has survived from the days when 
> saws were pulled. Such a mark would serve to catch the carpenter's eye 
> as he pulled back on the saw so that he stopped his pull before the 
> blade came out of the cut."

	Welcome to the Porch, Tom.  Have you ever tried to saw and watch the 
nib at the same time?  Do you find it useful?  I know I don't, it slows 
me down considerably.  I much prefer to use muscle memory and just let 
'er rip.  I find Mr. Hibben's statement no more convincing than Mr. 
Zanni's.  There are lots of publications that give a purpose for the 
nib, but I find  them lacking in practicality and they never give any 
hard evidence to support their statements.

>
> Disston literature published circa 1900, states that the nib is purely 
> decorative, serves to brake up the straight line of the back and 
> serves no useful purpose. This would indicate that by this time most 
> saw makers had forgotten the original purpose of the nib and retained 
> it mearly as a decorative element of the past that gave the buyer 
> sense of tradition and high quality. Disston was one of the last of 
> the American Saw makers to retain the "nib" on it's "old line" models 
> up until 1928 when the company redesigned it's product line.

	Why would that indicate that they forgot?  Is it not possible that the 
real purpose was strictly decorative?

Regards,
Steve

------------------------------------------------------------------------

Perhaps it was not a visual marker, but one felt with a thumb. A straight
backed saw would of course be easier to keep a thumb on while feeling for
the nib to trigger your forward stroke. Those old timers didn't need to
watch the line to saw to it anyway, right?

>Have you ever tried to saw and watch the
> nib at the same time?  Do you find it useful?

------------------------------------------------------------------------

 "Tom Opfell"  wrote:

>> I believe that the actual purpose of the saw nib was, as
> Sandy Moss correctly stated, was to warn the operator that the end of
> the blade was near to prevent the saw from freeing itself from the
> kerf and perhaps injuring the hand holding the board.
GG

I have trouble with this explanation. When you are hacking away with
your handsaw, you are completing a stroke about avery second. If you are
experienced, you no longer have to think about keeping the cut square or
following the line
- these things are second nature. I don't think I could even see the nib
  at the speed the blade is going and I definitely wouldn't have time to
  react to it. Ed Minch

---------------------------------------------------------------------
Web mail provided by NuNet, Inc. The Premier National provider.
http://www.nni.com/

------------------------------------------------------------------------

Tom,

Welcome to the List, it's good to see that you found us.

The purpose of the saw nib? I'm in the camp that it was intended
to generate conversation 100 to 150 years after it was
manufactured on a saw.

Jim Crammond in Monroe, Mi.

--- On Fri, 7/11/08, Tom Opfell  wrote:

> Hi,
>
> My name is Tom Opfell. I have had an interest in and collected
> handsaws for about 20 years now and own over 1000.


------------------------------------------------------------------------

-----Original Message-----
From: oldtools-bounces@r...
[mailto:oldtools-bounces@r...] On Behalf Of Tom Opfell
Sent: Friday, July 11, 2008 8:12 PM
To: oldtools@r...
Subject: [OldTools] Handsaw Nibs and Early Saws

> I believe that the actual purpose of the saw nib was, as Sandy Moss
> correctly stated, was to warn the operator that the end of the blade was
> near to prevent the saw from freeing itself from the kerf and perhaps
> injuring the hand holding the board. In his book "The Carpenter's Tool
> Chest" published in 1933, Thomas Hibben's states "the little nipple on the

> top of our saws has survived from the days when saws were pulled. Such a
> mark would serve to catch the carpenter's eye as he pulled back on the saw

> so that he stopped his pull before the blade came out of the cut."

Does this mean that without a nib, sawyers have trouble with the saw flying
out of the kerf?  I'm not a great sawyer, by any stretch, but I never have
that problem.

This explanation doesn't make sense to me.  When you're sawing, you're
watching the line, not the back or toe of the saw.

- Bill T.

------------------------------------------------------------------------

Matthew  Groves wrote:

> Perhaps it was not a visual marker, but one felt with a thumb. A 
> straight
> backed saw would of course be easier to keep a thumb on while feeling 
> for
> the nib to trigger your forward stroke. Those old timers didn't need to
> watch the line to saw to it anyway, right?
>
>
>> Have you ever tried to saw and watch the
>> nib at the same time?  Do you find it useful?
>
>

	That is an interesting thought, but I still don't think it passes the 
practicality test.  I find it useful to have my thumb down on the board 
being cut, pressed up against the saw, only when starting the cut.  
Once the cut is started it is far more comfortable and ergonomic to 
move your hand up on the handle with the other hand and proceed with 
speed.  Near the end of the cut it is useful to reach down an hold the 
offcut so it doesn't snap off, but that does not put the hand in a 
position to feel the nib.  I suppose one could speculate that it was a 
braille type aid for blind sawyers, but I don't believe 18th and 19th 
century sawmakers were that ADA compliant back then.

Regards,
Steve - oddly enjoying this round of nib discussion, for some unknown 
reason

------------------------------------------------------------------------

I can say that I'm pretty firm in the "decorative" camp. Your words are
totally true, especially with how deep some heels of saws are, that thumb
would be traveling some significant distance just to stay on the top edge.

As to practicality I think you are also completely correct, BUT I also think
that working wood in a 3-piece suit isn't practical, and yet those old
timers must have known different.

Matthew Groves
Springfield, MO

PS Anyone wanting to split some costs in milling up an 11 foot bole of white
oak 42 inches across into q-sawn lumber, let me know.

> 
> That is an interesting thought, but I still don't think it passes the
> practicality test.

------------------------------------------------------------------------

On Jul 12, 2008, at 1:48 PM, Tom Opfell wrote:
> My Dear Porch Sitters,
> I would like to thank all that sent me a warm welcome after my  
> first posting. I now realize that by admitting to having an  
> sickening obsession with handsaws has put me in the "collector"  
> camp in the eyes of many of the user types reading these posts. Let  
> me assure those persons that after earning my living for 35 years  
> as a carpenter, that I do indeed know which end of a saw to pick up.
> To those who have little interest in the historical aspects of  
> woodworking tools and view discussions of saw nibs and early  
> handsaws as comical, a waste of time, or just plain ridiculous,  
> will probably find little to interest themselves here. . . .
	[Rest of interesting and informative historical treatise snipped,  
per FAQ]

Tom--
	Thanks very much for the background, context, and clarification.  I  
(and I am sure others) appreciate your taking the time to put it  
together.  As one of those who came back at your earlier, much  
briefer posting, and probably did so way too bluntly (not really in  
keeping with the mellow traditions of The Porch) I want to assure you  
that many of us are, indeed, very interested in such historical  
matters.  We value reasoned, informed discussion, maybe more than  
this latest round of the "saw nib debate" has revealed, and I  
apologize for my part in any sharp edges the discussion might seem to  
have taken on.
	I agree that those on the side of "it's only decorative" are also  
speculating, and a pamphlet approved by Henry Disston's sons  around  
the beginning of the 20th century is no more authoritative than some  
of the other recently printed sources.  It may well be that they also  
didn't know or care much about history or tradition, and just wanted  
to stop the idle queries that came their way.  From the few  
illustrations I have seen of much earlier saws with much larger "nib- 
like" protrusions, I would also agree that Disston's nibs as of the  
later 19th century were only vestigial versions of what apparently,  
on some saws, had once been larger.  There is also ample evidence,  
however, that the Disstons continued to think that matters of "style"  
were important, even before practicality.  That evidence is no doubt  
etched on the blades of many of the saws in your collection:  "For  
Beauty, Finish, and Utility, this saw cannot be excelled."  Style  
first, craftmanship in saw making second, and utility third--and all  
important.  As for the dating of the pamphlet, surely there were  
people around in 1900, probably some still working for Disston, who  
had been at it since before the Civil War.  Oral traditions were  
probably more important in the past than more recently, especially in  
manual trades and I *speculate* that if Henry himself (1819-78) had  
ever made his opinions known as to why they put nibs on saws, it  
should have still been in the company lore by 1900.
	That said, It seems to me that those who continue to search for, or  
speculate on the side of, a utilitarian purpose for the saw nib, need  
to come up with a more convincing case, whether from historical  
evidence or from the standpoint of utilitarian practicality or a  
combination of both, than I have seen so for.  The idea that a  
working craftsman might find it useful to have a piece of metal  
sticking out of the top edge of the saw blade, as a visual signal on  
the back stroke that the teeth are coming close to being pulled out  
of the kerf--I do not find convincing.
	Thanks again for sharing your experience and knowledge with us,
		Tom Holloway (one of the other Toms)
------------------------------------------------------------------------

On Jul 12, 2008, at 4:16 PM, Bill Taggart wrote:
> Tom,
> I guess your timing in bringing up the endless nib question is  
> unfortunate.
> The problem is that here on the Porch, we've had this discussion, ad
> nauseum, on several prior occasions over the years - so when it  
> comes up
> again, we tend to get a little goofy with it.

Actually, I think Chuck Myers was the instigator this time, with a  
slightly different sub line:

From:  Chuck Myers  
            

On Jul 12, 2008, at 5:10 PM, Sgt42RHR@a... wrote:

  BUT I also think
that working wood in a 3-piece suit  isn't practical, and yet those old
timers must have known different.

John opines...

This is certainly a thought to nibble  at.

Cheers,
John

 >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

  With a little shippage,

   They most certainly did NOT work in 3 piece suits! They took their  
coats off, rolled up their sleeves, and worked in vest, shirt and tie!
Let's not be revisionist!

Spike Cornelius
PDX
           Crazy for Shavings

------------------------------------------------------------------------

If the nib was so useful to the workman on those earlier saws and made it
easier or somehow more efficient in use, why did it wither and die?
Wouldn't the workman who had grown up and been trained on large-nibbed saws
demand the same or similar nib when they bought new saws?  Are the nibless
saws more complicated to learn to use, as they lack the eye-catching device?

Mr. Hibbens's speculation seems just that to me - speculation.  Having used
handsaws for a couple years - admittedly not 35 - it just doesn't make sense
or ring true to me.  Is the argument that workmen in the 17th century
watched for the nib to emerge from the cut, rather than watching the line
they were sawing to?

We can all speculate lots of interesting "functions" for the nib, and some
have pet theories they like quite well.

I don't see it as needing any particular function.  What is the function of
the tiny little curvy notch at the top of the handle shown here?
http://www.disstonianinstitute.com/9page/no9h3.jpg

What's the function of wheat-carving on a handle?

What's the function of the "fishtail" or "birdsmouth" notch at the bottom of
smaller backsaw handles (for example:
http://www.finetoolj.com/LN/images/LNDOVETAIL.jpg)

I don't see a need for every little notch and projection on a tool to serve
some functional purpose.  A lot of it is frippery to make it more
aesthetically appealing.  In my workshop, the nib falls into that category,
as there seems to be no contemporaneous documentation or depictions of it
being used in any functional way.

- Bill T.

-----Original Message-----
From: oldtools-bounces@r...
[mailto:oldtools-bounces@r...] On Behalf Of Tom Opfell
Sent: Saturday, July 12, 2008 4:48 PM
To: oldtools@r...
Subject: [OldTools] Handsaw Nibs and Early Saws

My Dear Porch Sitters,
I would like to thank all that sent me a warm welcome after my first
posting. I now realize that by admitting to having an sickening obsession
with handsaws has put me in the "collector" camp in the eyes of many of the
user types reading these posts. Let me assure those persons that after
earning my living for 35 years as a carpenter, that I do indeed know which
end of a saw to pick up.
To those who have little interest in the historical aspects of woodworking
tools and view discussions of saw nibs and early handsaws as comical, a
waste of time, or just plain ridiculous, will probably find little to
interest themselves here.
There certainly is no definitive answer to the question of "what was the
original purpose of the saw nib?". We do not have a historical reference
that revels who the first man to put a "nib" on a saw was, or as to what his

original idea was. Nor do we have a dinfinitive reference as to why some
twenty succeeding generations of saw makers copied this early pioneer's
idea. About these maters we can only speculate. The idea that the nib was
always intended to be purely decorative is just as speculative as the idea
that the nib served a purpose. We can only look at the artifacts and try to
arrive at intelligent conclusions.
Although I would not be surprised if some pictorial reference to a saw
having what looked like a "nib" turned up from 2000 years ago, for the most
part in the we can assume that in middle Europe the "nib" first began to
appear on short wide blade saws, having blades which were nearly rectangular

(very slight taper in width) in cross section and had a straight cutting
edge.
These saws are believed to have been the result of improvements in the
materials (carbonized iron) in which the saw maker had at his despoil. The
blades on these wide, straight, bladed saws are believed to have been
thinner than the narrow bladed curved sword like saws that had been in use
throughout the middle ages. The curve of the blade on the saws of the middle

ages(and earlier) was not merely a decorative feature but served to stiffen
it while minimizing it's thickness. Pictorial examples of these narrow
bladed sword like saws often show the teeth cutting on the push stroke on
larger models while the smaller examples often on the pull.
It should be noted that saws of both pull and push stroke go back to the
stone age and that while most early copper saws would have been toothed to
cut on the pull stroke, many of the later bronze types cut on the push. It
was a matter of achieving the required stiffness while maintaining the
requisite thinness to minimize material remodel, making sawing quicker and
less labor intensive. This is certainly the reason why frame saws were so
popular and many countries early on, and nearly abandoned the handsaw or at
least minimized it's usage.
These early "nibbed" wide bladed saws which began appearing circa the 1600's

were often categorized by a dramatically rounded toe having a large radius
of some 2 or 3 inches. Should we ask ourselves "why the dramatically rounded

toe"? Was it purely decorative? Well, some flat earthers might think so, but

it probably did have an intended purpose of making the saw more user
friendly buy allowing it to get into tighter spaces, sawing up against an
obstacle, freedom from pain when dropping on your toe, etc.
On those early "nibbed" saws, which are generally fairly short in length, we

progress up the blade from the rounded toe to find a very large bulbous
"nib" which would clearly "catch the eye" of a carpenter as the saw was in
use. It should also be noted that these early wide, rectangular shaped, thin

bladed saws, with round toe and large nib, are most often depicted as
cutting on the pull stroke, unlike many of the earlier curved bladed, nib
less, saws which often cut on the push stroke.
For those that have decried the "nib" is not large enough to "catch the eye"

or that saw is moving to fast to see the nib are not thinking about a saw
from the 17th Century, but are referring to there own experience with the
tiny nibbed saws from the 18th and 19th Century.
As handsaws progressed, in Europe, in the 18th century the blades developed
a much greater taper (not so rectangular) being much narrower at the toe.
The nibs progressively got smaller and the rounding of the toe was not as
dramatic. As the development of steel and the art of smithing progressed the

blades became stiffer and thinner and the teeth began to revert back to a
push stroke.
By the beginning of 18th Century the English were turning the production of
handsaws into an art form. The creation of the guilds of the middle ages had

turned tool production into a very specialized affair. I have often heard
the tale that the "nib" was a trade mark of the saw makers guild (or the
cutlers guild, which later incorporated saw making), but have found no
documentary of this folklore either. It is clear that during the 18th and
19th centuries the "nib" became an expression of the art of saw making.
Before the age of machinery and mass production, the "nib" allowed the saw
maker to display his skill in working with metal. Saw handles were often
bought by the maker from an outside source by this time. Certainly to the
buyer, an artfully done decoration on the back of the saw plate, would give
an assurance that the article had been produced by an accomplished maker.
When the sons of Henry Disston made the statement (ca,1900) that the nib was

purely decorative and served no useful purpose, they were most certainly
referring to the saws that they were making at that time. They most likely
published this statement in response to all the enquiries that had been
received, inquiring as to it's purpose. They did not say that the "nib" had
never, throughout history, served a purpose.
When the "nib" was first developed in the middle ages, excessive
ornamentation was not the norm. Saws were rather plane and purposeful
looking, lacking the frills of the later era. It is not that far of a
stretch to envision that there was originally a useful purpose for that bit
of ornamentation. After all, tools were not intended to be art, and nearly
all of the design decisions that have occurred throughout the history of
there making, were intended to improved there usefulness, no mater how wacky

the idea may have been. I see little reason to suspect that this was not the

case in the development of the saw "nib".
The reasoned speculation by Thomas Hibben, in his book concerning the
history of types and the methods of construction of carpenters tools from
the stone age to the 18th century, that the nib was originally developed to
"catch the eye" of the operator seems to me to be the most valid that I have

yet to hear, although clearly as time progressed the "nib" was relegated to
ornamentation.
Regards,
Tom

------------------------------------------------------------------------

I'm late to the party in welcoming you, Tom--so Welcome!

Sorry, I got to snipping the text and ended with it all gone. I really tried 
to keep some of it for quoting.

It is incredible to me that the nib generates so much discussion, humorous 
or not. It seems that with hand saws, planes--name the tool--there are much 
better things to discuss in a serious vein. Which is why perchance the nib 
gets the brunt of so many great running lines in this thread.

Heck, the jokes have been better than most all of the "serious" theories put 
forth over the years, especially the quoted text from Payson that began this 
go-'round.

Collectors? I suspect we all are in something. Me? I have a bad penchant for 
plow planes. I don't use more than a few but have a, er, couple spares. And 
saws? Well, I have to confess I have been selling off and giving away the 
hoards over the last few years and am down to two large boxes I believe. 
Other than the ones I *need* for working, of course.

My wife is a turner. She's got a penchant for calipers and other measuring 
devices. So much so she needs to make a bunch of "presentation" boxes to 
hold 'em. Collecting is a good thing. Especially when we save those Record 
plows from the landfill. After all, most were plated with bad stuff. I'm 
saving the world one plow at a time.

Take care, Mike 

------------------------------------------------------------------------

Hi Bill,
 I did not say that the nib proved itself over the long run to be usefull. I 
only said that when it was first invented it was thought by it's maker to be 
a usefull thing. And it just may have well been, judging by the number of 
makers who latched on to the idea, and at the time with carpenters who were 
acustumed to using a different type of saw. The earlier nibbed saws had a 
much larger nib. It was not something that you would have to "watch" for, 
and if you are staring at your pencil line and atempting to correct the path 
of a wide bladed saw every second of the time, I think that you should 
either get a new saw or maybe just relax a little bit more. As I said, it is 
just as much a speculation to say that it never had a "function", as to say 
that it did. We will never know for sure.
 When Disston began making saws late in the year of 1841, he was attempting 
to emulate the look of the English Saw Makers product, as were other 
American makers. English saws were considered the best at that time. 
Although Disston kept traditional saws in the line up untill the late 
1920's, by 1874 a number of different handle changes began to take place. 
Having won the public's trust, Disston was now free to modernize the handles 
of his saws, making them more effective to use.
 I certainly respect your subjective option, hope that you respect mine, but 
also wonder as to how carefully you have researched the matter.
Kindest Regards,
Tom
----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Bill Taggart" 
To: "'Tom Opfell'" ; 
Sent: Saturday, July 12, 2008 5:44 PM
Subject: RE: [OldTools] Handsaw Nibs and Early Saws

> If the nib was so useful to the workman on those earlier saws and made it
> easier or somehow more efficient in use, why did it wither and die?
> Wouldn't the workman who had grown up and been trained on large-nibbed 
> saws
> demand the same or similar nib when they bought new saws?  Are the nibless
> saws more complicated to learn to use, as they lack the eye-catching 
> device?
>
>
> Mr. Hibbens's speculation seems just that to me - speculation.  Having 
> used
> handsaws for a couple years - admittedly not 35 - it just doesn't make 
> sense
> or ring true to me.  Is the argument that workmen in the 17th century
> watched for the nib to emerge from the cut, rather than watching the line
> they were sawing to?
>
> We can all speculate lots of interesting "functions" for the nib, and some
> have pet theories they like quite well.
>
> I don't see it as needing any particular function.  What is the function 
> of
> the tiny little curvy notch at the top of the handle shown here?
> http://www.disstonianinstitute.com/9page/no9h3.jpg
>
> What's the function of wheat-carving on a handle?
>
> What's the function of the "fishtail" or "birdsmouth" notch at the bottom 
> of
> smaller backsaw handles (for example:
> http://www.finetoolj.com/LN/images/LNDOVETAIL.jpg)
>
> I don't see a need for every little notch and projection on a tool to 
> serve
> some functional purpose.  A lot of it is frippery to make it more
> aesthetically appealing.  In my workshop, the nib falls into that 
> category,
> as there seems to be no contemporaneous documentation or depictions of it
> being used in any functional way.
>
> - Bill T.
>
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: oldtools-bounces@r...
> [mailto:oldtools-bounces@r...] On Behalf Of Tom Opfell
> Sent: Saturday, July 12, 2008 4:48 PM
> To: oldtools@r...
> Subject: [OldTools] Handsaw Nibs and Early Saws
>
> My Dear Porch Sitters,
> I would like to thank all that sent me a warm welcome after my first
> posting. I now realize that by admitting to having an sickening obsession
> with handsaws has put me in the "collector" camp in the eyes of many of 
> the
> user types reading these posts. Let me assure those persons that after
> earning my living for 35 years as a carpenter, that I do indeed know which
> end of a saw to pick up.
> To those who have little interest in the historical aspects of woodworking
> tools and view discussions of saw nibs and early handsaws as comical, a
> waste of time, or just plain ridiculous, will probably find little to
> interest themselves here.
> There certainly is no definitive answer to the question of "what was the
> original purpose of the saw nib?". We do not have a historical reference
> that revels who the first man to put a "nib" on a saw was, or as to what 
> his
>
> original idea was. Nor do we have a dinfinitive reference as to why some
> twenty succeeding generations of saw makers copied this early pioneer's
> idea. About these maters we can only speculate. The idea that the nib was
> always intended to be purely decorative is just as speculative as the idea
> that the nib served a purpose. We can only look at the artifacts and try 
> to
> arrive at intelligent conclusions.
> Although I would not be surprised if some pictorial reference to a saw
> having what looked like a "nib" turned up from 2000 years ago, for the 
> most
> part in the we can assume that in middle Europe the "nib" first began to
> appear on short wide blade saws, having blades which were nearly 
> rectangular
>
> (very slight taper in width) in cross section and had a straight cutting
> edge.
> These saws are believed to have been the result of improvements in the
> materials (carbonized iron) in which the saw maker had at his despoil. The
> blades on these wide, straight, bladed saws are believed to have been
> thinner than the narrow bladed curved sword like saws that had been in use
> throughout the middle ages. The curve of the blade on the saws of the 
> middle
>
> ages(and earlier) was not merely a decorative feature but served to 
> stiffen
> it while minimizing it's thickness. Pictorial examples of these narrow
> bladed sword like saws often show the teeth cutting on the push stroke on
> larger models while the smaller examples often on the pull.
> It should be noted that saws of both pull and push stroke go back to the
> stone age and that while most early copper saws would have been toothed to
> cut on the pull stroke, many of the later bronze types cut on the push. It
> was a matter of achieving the required stiffness while maintaining the
> requisite thinness to minimize material remodel, making sawing quicker and
> less labor intensive. This is certainly the reason why frame saws were so
> popular and many countries early on, and nearly abandoned the handsaw or 
> at
> least minimized it's usage.
> These early "nibbed" wide bladed saws which began appearing circa the 
> 1600's
>
> were often categorized by a dramatically rounded toe having a large radius
> of some 2 or 3 inches. Should we ask ourselves "why the dramatically 
> rounded
>
> toe"? Was it purely decorative? Well, some flat earthers might think so, 
> but
>
> it probably did have an intended purpose of making the saw more user
> friendly buy allowing it to get into tighter spaces, sawing up against an
> obstacle, freedom from pain when dropping on your toe, etc.
> On those early "nibbed" saws, which are generally fairly short in length, 
> we
>
> progress up the blade from the rounded toe to find a very large bulbous
> "nib" which would clearly "catch the eye" of a carpenter as the saw was in
> use. It should also be noted that these early wide, rectangular shaped, 
> thin
>
> bladed saws, with round toe and large nib, are most often depicted as
> cutting on the pull stroke, unlike many of the earlier curved bladed, nib
> less, saws which often cut on the push stroke.
> For those that have decried the "nib" is not large enough to "catch the 
> eye"
>
> or that saw is moving to fast to see the nib are not thinking about a saw
> from the 17th Century, but are referring to there own experience with the
> tiny nibbed saws from the 18th and 19th Century.
> As handsaws progressed, in Europe, in the 18th century the blades 
> developed
> a much greater taper (not so rectangular) being much narrower at the toe.
> The nibs progressively got smaller and the rounding of the toe was not as
> dramatic. As the development of steel and the art of smithing progressed 
> the
>
> blades became stiffer and thinner and the teeth began to revert back to a
> push stroke.
> By the beginning of 18th Century the English were turning the production 
> of
> handsaws into an art form. The creation of the guilds of the middle ages 
> had
>
> turned tool production into a very specialized affair. I have often heard
> the tale that the "nib" was a trade mark of the saw makers guild (or the
> cutlers guild, which later incorporated saw making), but have found no
> documentary of this folklore either. It is clear that during the 18th and
> 19th centuries the "nib" became an expression of the art of saw making.
> Before the age of machinery and mass production, the "nib" allowed the saw
> maker to display his skill in working with metal. Saw handles were often
> bought by the maker from an outside source by this time. Certainly to the
> buyer, an artfully done decoration on the back of the saw plate, would 
> give
> an assurance that the article had been produced by an accomplished maker.
> When the sons of Henry Disston made the statement (ca,1900) that the nib 
> was
>
> purely decorative and served no useful purpose, they were most certainly
> referring to the saws that they were making at that time. They most likely
> published this statement in response to all the enquiries that had been
> received, inquiring as to it's purpose. They did not say that the "nib" 
> had
> never, throughout history, served a purpose.
> When the "nib" was first developed in the middle ages, excessive
> ornamentation was not the norm. Saws were rather plane and purposeful
> looking, lacking the frills of the later era. It is not that far of a
> stretch to envision that there was originally a useful purpose for that 
> bit
> of ornamentation. After all, tools were not intended to be art, and nearly
> all of the design decisions that have occurred throughout the history of
> there making, were intended to improved there usefulness, no mater how 
> wacky
>
> the idea may have been. I see little reason to suspect that this was not 
> the
>
> case in the development of the saw "nib".
> The reasoned speculation by Thomas Hibben, in his book concerning the
> history of types and the methods of construction of carpenters tools from
> the stone age to the 18th century, that the nib was originally developed 
> to
> "catch the eye" of the operator seems to me to be the most valid that I 
> have
>
> yet to hear, although clearly as time progressed the "nib" was relegated 
> to
> ornamentation.
> Regards,
> Tom
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
> OldTools is a mailing list catering to the interests of hand tool
> aficionados, both collectors and users, to discuss the history, usage,
> value, location, availability, collectibility, and restoration of
> traditional handtools, especially woodworking tools.
>
> To change your subscription options:
> http://ruckus.law.cornell.edu/mailman/listinfo/oldtools
>
> To read the FAQ:
> http://swingleydev.com/archive/faq.html
>
> OldTools archive: http://swingleydev.com/archive/
>
> OldTools@r...
> http://ruckus.law.cornell.edu/mailman/listinfo/oldtools
>
>
>
> No virus found in this incoming message.
> Checked by AVG - http://www.avg.com
> Version: 8.0.138 / Virus Database: 270.4.9/1548 - Release Date: 7/12/2008 
> 7:40 AM
>
> 

------------------------------------------------------------------------

Peter

As with StoneNib, the scroll decoration on Davis Levels referred to  
mystical rights of which we are no longer privy. I have heard that if  
you align a Davis Level to true north, you will always find your way  
home. But that may be hearsay.

But then I have also heard that by deciphering the meaning behind the  
Stanley Plane Numbering system, one will attain nirvana.

Gary

Gary Roberts
toolemera@m...
http://toolemerablog.typepad.com/
http://toolemera.com/

"I'ld rather read a good book, than write a poor one." Christopher  
Morley

On Jul 12, 2008, at 6:06 PM, P J McBride wrote:

GG's
Can someone help me out here...
What is the function of the scroll decoration an a Davis level?

Regards,
Peter,
In Melbourne casting his eyes over the significant amount of  
DECORATION on
the tools in my collection, and especially on the tools I like to
make...lots and lots of DEORATED tools...life is good!
www.petermcbride.com/planemaking/gallery/
www.petermcbride.com/oldtools/

------------------------------------------------------------------------

 Dear Mr. Downunder,
The fuction of the scroll work on the Davis Level's was of course to allow 
it to be broken more easily, so that the owner would shortly be in the maket 
for a new one. Correct me if I am wrong, but were the Davis level's first 
manufactured in the Middle Ages, or did those come about during the hieght 
of the Victorian era when excessive decoration was at it's peak.
Tom
----- Original Message ----- 
From: "P J McBride" 
To: "Tom Opfell" ; 
Sent: Saturday, July 12, 2008 6:06 PM
Subject: RE: [OldTools] Handsaw Nibs and Early Saws

> GG's
> Can someone help me out here...
> What is the function of the scroll decoration an a Davis level?
>
> Regards,
> Peter,
> In Melbourne casting his eyes over the significant amount of DECORATION on
> the tools in my collection, and especially on the tools I like to
> make...lots and lots of DEORATED tools...life is good!
> www.petermcbride.com/planemaking/gallery/
> www.petermcbride.com/oldtools/
>
>
> No virus found in this incoming message.
> Checked by AVG - http://www.avg.com
> Version: 8.0.138 / Virus Database: 270.4.9/1548 - Release Date: 7/12/2008 
> 7:40 AM
>
>
> 

------------------------------------------------------------------------

Tom,

I guess your timing in bringing up the endless nib question is unfortunate.
The problem is that here on the Porch, we've had this discussion, ad
nauseum, on several prior occasions over the years - so when it comes up
again, we tend to get a little goofy with it.  I recall someone compiling a
canonical list of explanations that have been put forth over the years,
resulting in dozens, if not over a hundred, suggested uses for the nib.
Please don't take it personally.

Several Porch dwellers here have researched various sources and offered up
various potential ideas.  I guess the problem is that there is insufficient
or actually a total lack of evidence to support any particular theory that
has been put forth to explain or provide some sort of utilitarian function
for the nib.  So in my view, it's kind of difficult, and actually pretty
fruitless, to become too closely wed to any particular pet theory.

As I mentioned earlier, to my knowledge (and I would be perfectly happy to
be proven mistaken here), there is no pictorial or textual evidence to
support the conclusion that the nib had any actual "function" to the user at
all.  Moxon and Diderot are well-known for their works documenting and
depicting the use of tools during the time periods we've been discussing.  I
don't have either of their works at my immediate disposal and do not in any
way claim to be an authority on either one, so I'd like it if someone who
does have access to them would let us know if there is any reference of any
kind to the nib or its purported use.

And if the largest saw manufacturer in the world, who had been at it for
something like 60 years at the time, stated, in response to many inquiries,
that the nib was decorative, I consider that to be probative evidence.  Not
necessarily conclusive, of course, but it must be weighed in the balance.

I of course respect your opinion.  I simply don't agree with it.  As I have
said, I'm comfortable with the conclusion that the nib, like many other
features on handsaws, is purely a decorative feature that *could* be used in
certain ways by the user (the one I like best is for tying on a strip of
wood to guard the teeth).  But I've not seen anything that convinces me it
was manufactured with a particular intended utilitarian purpose.

Best regards,

- Bill

-----Original Message-----
From: Tom Opfell [mailto:topfell@a...]
Sent: Saturday, July 12, 2008 6:27 PM
To: Bill Taggart; oldtools@r...
Subject: Re: [OldTools] Handsaw Nibs and Early Saws

Hi Bill,
 I did not say that the nib proved itself over the long run to be usefull. I

only said that when it was first invented it was thought by it's maker to be

a usefull thing. And it just may have well been, judging by the number of
makers who latched on to the idea, and at the time with carpenters who were
acustumed to using a different type of saw. The earlier nibbed saws had a
much larger nib. It was not something that you would have to "watch" for,
and if you are staring at your pencil line and atempting to correct the path

of a wide bladed saw every second of the time, I think that you should
either get a new saw or maybe just relax a little bit more. As I said, it is

just as much a speculation to say that it never had a "function", as to say
that it did. We will never know for sure.
 When Disston began making saws late in the year of 1841, he was attempting
to emulate the look of the English Saw Makers product, as were other
American makers. English saws were considered the best at that time.
Although Disston kept traditional saws in the line up untill the late
1920's, by 1874 a number of different handle changes began to take place.
Having won the public's trust, Disston was now free to modernize the handles

of his saws, making them more effective to use.
 I certainly respect your subjective option, hope that you respect mine, but

also wonder as to how carefully you have researched the matter.
Kindest Regards,
Tom
----- Original Message -----
From: "Bill Taggart" 
To: "'Tom Opfell'" ; 
Sent: Saturday, July 12, 2008 5:44 PM
Subject: RE: [OldTools] Handsaw Nibs and Early Saws

> If the nib was so useful to the workman on those earlier saws and made it
> easier or somehow more efficient in use, why did it wither and die?
> Wouldn't the workman who had grown up and been trained on large-nibbed
> saws
> demand the same or similar nib when they bought new saws?  Are the nibless
> saws more complicated to learn to use, as they lack the eye-catching
> device?
>
>
> Mr. Hibbens's speculation seems just that to me - speculation.  Having
> used
> handsaws for a couple years - admittedly not 35 - it just doesn't make
> sense
> or ring true to me.  Is the argument that workmen in the 17th century
> watched for the nib to emerge from the cut, rather than watching the line
> they were sawing to?
>
> We can all speculate lots of interesting "functions" for the nib, and some
> have pet theories they like quite well.
>
> I don't see it as needing any particular function.  What is the function
> of
> the tiny little curvy notch at the top of the handle shown here?
> http://www.disstonianinstitute.com/9page/no9h3.jpg
>
> What's the function of wheat-carving on a handle?
>
> What's the function of the "fishtail" or "birdsmouth" notch at the bottom
> of
> smaller backsaw handles (for example:
> http://www.finetoolj.com/LN/images/LNDOVETAIL.jpg)
>
> I don't see a need for every little notch and projection on a tool to
> serve
> some functional purpose.  A lot of it is frippery to make it more
> aesthetically appealing.  In my workshop, the nib falls into that
> category,
> as there seems to be no contemporaneous documentation or depictions of it
> being used in any functional way.
>
> - Bill T.
>
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: oldtools-bounces@r...
> [mailto:oldtools-bounces@r...] On Behalf Of Tom Opfell
> Sent: Saturday, July 12, 2008 4:48 PM
> To: oldtools@r...
> Subject: [OldTools] Handsaw Nibs and Early Saws
>
> My Dear Porch Sitters,
> I would like to thank all that sent me a warm welcome after my first
> posting. I now realize that by admitting to having an sickening obsession
> with handsaws has put me in the "collector" camp in the eyes of many of
> the
> user types reading these posts. Let me assure those persons that after
> earning my living for 35 years as a carpenter, that I do indeed know which
> end of a saw to pick up.
> To those who have little interest in the historical aspects of woodworking
> tools and view discussions of saw nibs and early handsaws as comical, a
> waste of time, or just plain ridiculous, will probably find little to
> interest themselves here.
> There certainly is no definitive answer to the question of "what was the
> original purpose of the saw nib?". We do not have a historical reference
> that revels who the first man to put a "nib" on a saw was, or as to what
> his
>
> original idea was. Nor do we have a dinfinitive reference as to why some
> twenty succeeding generations of saw makers copied this early pioneer's
> idea. About these maters we can only speculate. The idea that the nib was
> always intended to be purely decorative is just as speculative as the idea
> that the nib served a purpose. We can only look at the artifacts and try
> to
> arrive at intelligent conclusions.
> Although I would not be surprised if some pictorial reference to a saw
> having what looked like a "nib" turned up from 2000 years ago, for the
> most
> part in the we can assume that in middle Europe the "nib" first began to
> appear on short wide blade saws, having blades which were nearly
> rectangular
>
> (very slight taper in width) in cross section and had a straight cutting
> edge.
> These saws are believed to have been the result of improvements in the
> materials (carbonized iron) in which the saw maker had at his despoil. The
> blades on these wide, straight, bladed saws are believed to have been
> thinner than the narrow bladed curved sword like saws that had been in use
> throughout the middle ages. The curve of the blade on the saws of the
> middle
>
> ages(and earlier) was not merely a decorative feature but served to
> stiffen
> it while minimizing it's thickness. Pictorial examples of these narrow
> bladed sword like saws often show the teeth cutting on the push stroke on
> larger models while the smaller examples often on the pull.
> It should be noted that saws of both pull and push stroke go back to the
> stone age and that while most early copper saws would have been toothed to
> cut on the pull stroke, many of the later bronze types cut on the push. It
> was a matter of achieving the required stiffness while maintaining the
> requisite thinness to minimize material remodel, making sawing quicker and
> less labor intensive. This is certainly the reason why frame saws were so
> popular and many countries early on, and nearly abandoned the handsaw or
> at
> least minimized it's usage.
> These early "nibbed" wide bladed saws which began appearing circa the
> 1600's
>
> were often categorized by a dramatically rounded toe having a large radius
> of some 2 or 3 inches. Should we ask ourselves "why the dramatically
> rounded
>
> toe"? Was it purely decorative? Well, some flat earthers might think so,
> but
>
> it probably did have an intended purpose of making the saw more user
> friendly buy allowing it to get into tighter spaces, sawing up against an
> obstacle, freedom from pain when dropping on your toe, etc.
> On those early "nibbed" saws, which are generally fairly short in length,
> we
>
> progress up the blade from the rounded toe to find a very large bulbous
> "nib" which would clearly "catch the eye" of a carpenter as the saw was in
> use. It should also be noted that these early wide, rectangular shaped,
> thin
>
> bladed saws, with round toe and large nib, are most often depicted as
> cutting on the pull stroke, unlike many of the earlier curved bladed, nib
> less, saws which often cut on the push stroke.
> For those that have decried the "nib" is not large enough to "catch the
> eye"
>
> or that saw is moving to fast to see the nib are not thinking about a saw
> from the 17th Century, but are referring to there own experience with the
> tiny nibbed saws from the 18th and 19th Century.
> As handsaws progressed, in Europe, in the 18th century the blades
> developed
> a much greater taper (not so rectangular) being much narrower at the toe.
> The nibs progressively got smaller and the rounding of the toe was not as
> dramatic. As the development of steel and the art of smithing progressed
> the
>
> blades became stiffer and thinner and the teeth began to revert back to a
> push stroke.
> By the beginning of 18th Century the English were turning the production
> of
> handsaws into an art form. The creation of the guilds of the middle ages
> had
>
> turned tool production into a very specialized affair. I have often heard
> the tale that the "nib" was a trade mark of the saw makers guild (or the
> cutlers guild, which later incorporated saw making), but have found no
> documentary of this folklore either. It is clear that during the 18th and
> 19th centuries the "nib" became an expression of the art of saw making.
> Before the age of machinery and mass production, the "nib" allowed the saw
> maker to display his skill in working with metal. Saw handles were often
> bought by the maker from an outside source by this time. Certainly to the
> buyer, an artfully done decoration on the back of the saw plate, would
> give
> an assurance that the article had been produced by an accomplished maker.
> When the sons of Henry Disston made the statement (ca,1900) that the nib
> was
>
> purely decorative and served no useful purpose, they were most certainly
> referring to the saws that they were making at that time. They most likely
> published this statement in response to all the enquiries that had been
> received, inquiring as to it's purpose. They did not say that the "nib"
> had
> never, throughout history, served a purpose.
> When the "nib" was first developed in the middle ages, excessive
> ornamentation was not the norm. Saws were rather plane and purposeful
> looking, lacking the frills of the later era. It is not that far of a
> stretch to envision that there was originally a useful purpose for that
> bit
> of ornamentation. After all, tools were not intended to be art, and nearly
> all of the design decisions that have occurred throughout the history of
> there making, were intended to improved there usefulness, no mater how
> wacky
>
> the idea may have been. I see little reason to suspect that this was not
> the
>
> case in the development of the saw "nib".
> The reasoned speculation by Thomas Hibben, in his book concerning the
> history of types and the methods of construction of carpenters tools from
> the stone age to the 18th century, that the nib was originally developed
> to
> "catch the eye" of the operator seems to me to be the most valid that I
> have
>
> yet to hear, although clearly as time progressed the "nib" was relegated
> to
> ornamentation.
> Regards,
> Tom
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
> OldTools is a mailing list catering to the interests of hand tool
> aficionados, both collectors and users, to discuss the history, usage,
> value, location, availability, collectibility, and restoration of
> traditional handtools, especially woodworking tools.
>
> To change your subscription options:
> http://ruckus.law.cornell.edu/mailman/listinfo/oldtools
>
> To read the FAQ:
> http://swingleydev.com/archive/faq.html
>
> OldTools archive: http://swingleydev.com/archive/
>
> OldTools@r...
> http://ruckus.law.cornell.edu/mailman/listinfo/oldtools
>
>
>
> No virus found in this incoming message.
> Checked by AVG - http://www.avg.com
> Version: 8.0.138 / Virus Database: 270.4.9/1548 - Release Date: 7/12/2008
> 7:40 AM
>
>

------------------------------------------------------------------------

Dear Tom,
 Thank you for your kind and intelligent reply. I have no absolutely no 
argument with people who consider it only a decorative element, have an open 
mind, and do not atempt to assert their own opinions as fact with little or 
no research to back it up. The "nib" may very well have been only a 
decortation from day one. We will never know for sure. However, when I 
entered this "chat", and I don't intend to put any one down, it was because 
of a few wild and crazy ideas were floating around about nibs being broken 
off by there makers, testing for temper by the "nib" method, and other wild 
and crazy speculations, with every one throwing in there two cents worth. 
Clearly the nib may of had a purpose when it was popularized in the 17th 
Century, and it is also very clear that in the 18th,  19th, and the early 
20th centuries it had become a decoration only. I don't think that even 
Henry Disston would have known why the "nib" had been first developed. That 
was well over 300 years before his time, and it had been in use as only a 
decoratative element for 200 years before his birth. That is all that he 
would have known. Only a few of the people could even read or write at that 
time. I just wanted to present a little factual information along with some 
reasoned spectulation concerning a subject that will forever remain unknown 
(as to why the first nib maker actualy did it and what he was thinking), and 
hope that people who come up with some of these wild and crazy ideas will 
wake up and smell the coffee.
Tom
----- Original Message ----- 
From: "T&J Holloway" 
To: "oldtools" 
Sent: Saturday, July 12, 2008 6:33 PM
Subject: Re: [OldTools] Handsaw Nibs and Early Saws

> On Jul 12, 2008, at 1:48 PM, Tom Opfell wrote:
>> My Dear Porch Sitters,
>> I would like to thank all that sent me a warm welcome after my  first 
>> posting. I now realize that by admitting to having an  sickening 
>> obsession with handsaws has put me in the "collector"  camp in the eyes 
>> of many of the user types reading these posts. Let  me assure those 
>> persons that after earning my living for 35 years  as a carpenter, that I 
>> do indeed know which end of a saw to pick up.
>> To those who have little interest in the historical aspects of 
>> woodworking tools and view discussions of saw nibs and early  handsaws as 
>> comical, a waste of time, or just plain ridiculous,  will probably find 
>> little to interest themselves here. . . .
> [Rest of interesting and informative historical treatise snipped,  per 
> FAQ]
>
> Tom--
> Thanks very much for the background, context, and clarification.  I  (and 
> I am sure others) appreciate your taking the time to put it  together.  As 
> one of those who came back at your earlier, much  briefer posting, and 
> probably did so way too bluntly (not really in  keeping with the mellow 
> traditions of The Porch) I want to assure you  that many of us are, 
> indeed, very interested in such historical  matters.  We value reasoned, 
> informed discussion, maybe more than  this latest round of the "saw nib 
> debate" has revealed, and I  apologize for my part in any sharp edges the 
> discussion might seem to  have taken on.
> I agree that those on the side of "it's only decorative" are also 
> speculating, and a pamphlet approved by Henry Disston's sons  around  the 
> beginning of the 20th century is no more authoritative than some  of the 
> other recently printed sources.  It may well be that they also  didn't 
> know or care much about history or tradition, and just wanted  to stop the 
> idle queries that came their way.  From the few  illustrations I have seen 
> of much earlier saws with much larger "nib- like" protrusions, I would 
> also agree that Disston's nibs as of the  later 19th century were only 
> vestigial versions of what apparently,  on some saws, had once been 
> larger.  There is also ample evidence,  however, that the Disstons 
> continued to think that matters of "style"  were important, even before 
> practicality.  That evidence is no doubt  etched on the blades of many of 
> the saws in your collection:  "For  Beauty, Finish, and Utility, this saw 
> cannot be excelled."  Style  first, craftmanship in saw making second, and 
> utility third--and all  important.  As for the dating of the pamphlet, 
> surely there were  people around in 1900, probably some still working for 
> Disston, who  had been at it since before the Civil War.  Oral traditions 
> were  probably more important in the past than more recently, especially 
> in  manual trades and I *speculate* that if Henry himself (1819-78) had 
> ever made his opinions known as to why they put nibs on saws, it  should 
> have still been in the company lore by 1900.
> That said, It seems to me that those who continue to search for, or 
> speculate on the side of, a utilitarian purpose for the saw nib, need  to 
> come up with a more convincing case, whether from historical  evidence or 
> from the standpoint of utilitarian practicality or a  combination of both, 
> than I have seen so for.  The idea that a  working craftsman might find it 
> useful to have a piece of metal  sticking out of the top edge of the saw 
> blade, as a visual signal on  the back stroke that the teeth are coming 
> close to being pulled out  of the kerf--I do not find convincing.
> Thanks again for sharing your experience and knowledge with us,
> Tom Holloway (one of the other Toms)
>
> No virus found in this incoming message.
> Checked by AVG - http://www.avg.com Version: 8.0.138 / Virus Database: 
> 270.4.9/1548 - Release Date: 7/12/2008 7:40 AM
>
>
> 

------------------------------------------------------------------------

In a message dated 7/12/2008 11:56:17 A.M. Central Daylight Time,  
matthew.groves@u... writes:
I can say that I'm pretty firm in the  "decorative" camp. Your words are
totally true, especially with how deep some  heels of saws are, that thumb
would be traveling some significant distance  just to stay on the top edge.

As to practicality I think you are also  completely correct, BUT I also think
that working wood in a 3-piece suit  isn't practical, and yet those old
timers must have known different.
 
John opines...

This is certainly a thought to nibble  at.

Cheers,
John

John M. Johnston,
"There is a fine line  between hobby and mental illness." Dave Barry
 

**************Get the scoop on last night's hottest shows and the live music 
scene in your area - Check out TourTracker.com!      
(http://www.tourtracker.com?NCID=aolmus00050000000112)
------------------------------------------------------------------------

On Sat, 12 Jul 2008 Sgt42RHR@a... wrote:

> Actually the wearing of coats by labourers depends on the century. In
> the 1 8th century--even late 18th century-- men, of almost all
> stations of life, would have been in a state of undress unless they
> were wearing their coats. Almost all period images of 18th century
> workers...with the possible exception of farm hands, are shown wearing
> breeches (short pants), shirt, waistcoat, and coat. Even the most
> cursory glance of PA and VA Gazette "Had On & Took With Them" runaway
> advertisements reveals that even indentured servant laborers were last
> seen in their coats.

Wouldn't they have been hot as hell in the warmer months?

        -- Andy Barss
------------------------------------------------------------------------

Actually the wearing of coats by labourers depends on the century. In
the 1 8th century--even late 18th century-- men, of almost all stations
of life, would have been in a state of undress unless they were wearing
their coats. Almost all period images of 18th century workers...with the
possible exception of farm hands, are shown wearing breeches (short
pants), shirt, waistcoat, and coat. Even the most cursory glance of PA
and VA Gazette "Had On & Took With Them" runaway advertisements reveals
that even indentured servant laborers were last seen in their coats.

Cheers, John

John M. Johnston, "There is a fine line between hobby and mental
illness." Dave Barry

In a message dated 7/12/2008 7:27:48 P.M. Central Daylight Time,
spikethebike@c... writes: They most certainly did NOT work in 3 piece
suits! They took their coats off, rolled up their sleeves, and worked in
vest, shirt and tie! Let's not be revisionist!

**************Get the scoop on last night's hottest shows and the live
music scene in your area - Check out TourTracker.com!
(http://www.tourtracker.com?NCID=aolmus00050000000112)
------------------------------------------------------------------------

On Jul 12, 2008, at 4:53 PM, Tom Opfell wrote:
> Clearly the nib may of had a purpose when it was popularized in the  
> 17th Century, and it is also very clear that in the 18th,  19th,  
> and the early 20th centuries it had become a decoration only. I  
> don't think that even Henry Disston would have known why the "nib"  
> had been first developed. That was well over 300 years before his  
> time, and it had been in use as only a decoratative element for 200  
> years before his birth. That is all that he would have known. Only  
> a few of the people could even read or write at that time. I just  
> wanted to present a little factual information along with some  
> reasoned spectulation concerning a subject that will forever remain  
> unknown (as to why the first nib maker actualy did it and what he  
> was thinking).

	I see a logical problem, if not necessarily a fatal flaw, in the  
reasoning that underlies the trajectory outlined above:   The  
hypothesis that  "It must have been introduced for a functional  
reason, but that reason was forgotten," in order to work, needs to  
posit a functional advantage in time "A", the time of introduction,  
that apparently in time "B" became so unimportant that the advantage  
was forgotten, even though a vestigial form of the device that once  
gave the advantage was kept on, now because of hidebound tradition,  
or because it looked nice.  Was there something about the way sawing  
lumber was done, or the way saws worked, that changed so completely  
from time "A" to time "B" that the collective memory of it among the  
people making and using saws would have forgotten it--completely?
	As more context, I think the low level of general literacy was not  
as big a problem as we might think it to be in our overly literate  
society today.  Many intricate and specific details of all sorts of  
trades, what Adam Cherubini (in his PopWW articles) calls "Arts and  
Mysteries," were handed down cumulatively for hundreds of years, even  
thousands, without ever being written down.  Anthropologists will  
confirm that lots of complex cultural traditions, from philosophy to  
techniques of ensuring a food supply, shelter, and other aspects of  
what people like to have and use, have been developed and passed on  
through thousands of years, without benefit of writing and reading.   
It's not a single line of succession we're talking about, like a  
family secret or an alchemist's formula.  It's an entire craft  
community, made up of some thousands of people, with teaching and  
learning and coming in and dying off constantly going on through the  
continuum of time.
	Back to my earlier point about giving our predecessors the credit,  
and respect, that I believe they are due:  This conundrum is OUR  
problem, not theirs.  The fact that many were illiterate did not make  
them stupid, nor less skilled at what they did.  The contrary is more  
likely, I suspect.  If I don't need a visible nib, large small, to  
tell my arm when to stop pulling up and when to start pushing back  
down the stroke, then I think it's insulting (to them) for me to  
think that carpenters in, say, 1650 needed such a counterintuitive  
crutch.  We shouldn't try to solve our problem by projecting back to  
others an explanation that doesn't make sense now, and wouldn't have  
made any more sense then.
	Tom Holloway
------------------------------------------------------------------------

John Johnston wrote (in part):

>Actually the wearing of coats by labourers  depends on the century.
>In the 18th century--even late 18th  century-- men, of almost all
>stations of life, would have been in a state  of undress unless they
>were wearing their coats.  Almost all period  images of 18th century
>workers...with the possible exception of farm  hands, are shown
>wearing breeches (short pants), shirt, waistcoat, and  coat. ...

Gaynor & Hagedorn, in _Tools, Working Wood in Eighteenth-Century
America_, c. 1993, reproduce an oil painting, ca. 1725, entitled
"The Carpenter's Yard," by Jack Laguerre. In it, all of the
carpenters are shown wearing breeches, aprons, stockings, shoes
and shirts. Only the master and his client are wearing waistcoats
and coats.

It may well have been that nearly all men wore waistcoats and
coats when "in public," which might explain the descriptions of
runaway apprentices as wearing coats, etc. Besides, it could have
been the easiest way to carry them. But this painting clearly
indicates that they could be shed, depending on the weather I
suppose, while actually at work.

Don McConnell
Eureka Springs, AR
------------------------------------------------------------------------

GG's
Can someone help me out here...
What is the function of the scroll decoration an a Davis level?

Regards,
Peter,
In Melbourne casting his eyes over the significant amount of DECORATION on
the tools in my collection, and especially on the tools I like to
make...lots and lots of DEORATED tools...life is good!
www.petermcbride.com/planemaking/gallery/
www.petermcbride.com/oldtools/

------------------------------------------------------------------------

Tom Opfell wrote:

> Hi Bill,
> I did not say that the nib proved itself over the long run to be 
> usefull. I only said that when it was first invented it was thought by 
> it's maker to be a usefull thing. And it just may have well been, 
> judging by the number of makers who latched on to the idea, and at the 
> time with carpenters who were acustumed to using a different type of 
> saw. The earlier nibbed saws had a much larger nib. It was not 
> something that you would have to "watch" for, and if you are staring 
> at your pencil line and atempting to correct the path of a wide bladed 
> saw every second of the time, I think that you should either get a new 
> saw or maybe just relax a little bit more. As I said, it is just as 
> much a speculation to say that it never had a "function", as to say 
> that it did. We will never know for sure.

	I want to preface my statements by saying my motivation for 
challenging the statements of others in nib threads is not to be rude, 
but to be sure the archive has a record that reflects the thinking of 
the Porch.  I'm an archive addict.  I find some threads in the archive 
left a lot of things unsaid and unchallenged.

	In that spirit, I want to say that the images of very early nibbed 
saws seem to be more decorative than even Disston's saws.  Look at the 
examples that have been linked to in this thread.  Those are some 
artistic metalworking, for instance:
http://www.backsaw.net/pics/1698_Dutch.jpg
	
	Except for the images which have unclear indication that there are 
holes at the end of the blade, none of them seem to a purpose, in my 
opinion.  What those holes are used for, I will gladly admit that I 
don't know for sure.  Attaching a handle seems to jump right out at me. 
  Perhaps not for attaching a second handle, but reattaching the the one 
at the other end for switching from push to pull strokes.

	The thought that pre-18th century tools were plain and workmanlike 
does not hold up in my experience.  Sandor CanSpellHisLastName's book 
on tool art can be a starting point for early tools that were 
over-the-edge on decoration.  Personally, I think it is much easier to 
add decoration to tools that are handmade by an artisan than it is to 
do so on mass produced items.

> When Disston began making saws late in the year of 1841, he was 
> attempting to emulate the look of the English Saw Makers product, as 
> were other American makers. English saws were considered the best at 
> that time. Although Disston kept traditional saws in the line up 
> untill the late 1920's, by 1874 a number of different handle changes 
> began to take place. Having won the public's trust, Disston was now 
> free to modernize the handles of his saws, making them more effective 
> to use.

	I believe that the Disston publication saying the nib is decorative 
holds a lot more weight than all the other speculations.  Bill just 
called it probative evidence, but my Googling of the term didn't help 
me understand if that means the person making the statement is 
considered to have more expertise.  I'll say flat out, I think the 
Disston publication has far more value due to Henry doing his 
apprenticeship in the early part of the 1800s, the fact that the family 
members came up in the business, and that they had a research group of 
intelligent people who eat/slept/drank saws everyday.  I think that is 
expertise.  Therefore, I find a logical fallacy in statements that the 
nib clearly had a purpose and that clearly Disston didn't know what it 
was and took to thinking it was merely decorative.

> I certainly respect your subjective option, hope that you respect 
> mine, but also wonder as to how carefully you have researched the 
> matter.
> [snip]

	Many of us have researched this very carefully.  Perhaps you could 
search the archive and see the effort put into this in the past.  There 
are references to early documentation (albeit, still scarce) in those 
threads.  Because someone comes to a different conclusion does not mean 
they did not consider the same evidence that you considered.

In another message, you said:

> I just wanted to present a little factual information along with some 
> reasoned spectulation concerning a subject that will forever remain 
> unknown (as to why the first nib maker actualy did it and what he was 
> thinking), and hope that people who come up with some of these wild 
> and crazy ideas will wake up and smell the coffee.

	I'd just like to note that your first message gave the impression that 
the Hibbens reference was evidence, and in the next paragraph that the 
Disston literature was based on lost knowledge.  I hope you understand 
that the comments replying to your message are motivated by the same 
thought you quote above.  I don't find Hibbens to be factual 
information or reasoned speculation.  I am of the mind that the list of 
nib functions fall  into two categories, "Wild and Crazy Ideas", and 
"Speculation that Doesn't Pass the Practicality Test."  Hibbens' 
speculation does not pass the practicality test, but it certainly is 
not a Wild and Crazy Idea.  Overall, I get the feeling that your 
thoughts on nibs are not much different than most here.  We tend to 
fall into two categories ourselves, "Trust Disston and Have an Open 
Mind about an Unknown Function", and "It Probably Had a Function but 
Disston Might Be Correct."  We can get along.

Regards,
Steve - on a lovely morning in Delaware, but who will most likely 
remain indoors painting.

------------------------------------------------------------------------

On a slightly different note, until John Kennedy decided to go  
hatless, it was a very strong custom in this country for men to wear  
hats when they went outside. It was very uncool to show your bare head  
in public.

There was even a country saying, "I'm gonna get my hat!" This meant  
that the person speaking was going to leave, or even quit his job.

On Jul 12, 2008, at 9:52 PM, Andy Barss wrote:

> On Sat, 12 Jul 2008 Sgt42RHR@a... wrote:
>
>> Actually the wearing of coats by labourers  depends on the  
>> century.  In the 1
>> 8th century--even late 18th  century-- men, of almost all stations  
>> of life,
>> would have been in a state  of undress unless they were wearing  
>> their coats.
>> Almost all period  images of 18th century workers...with the  
>> possible exception
>> of farm  hands, are shown wearing breeches (short pants), shirt,  
>> waistcoat,
>> and  coat.  Even the most cursory glance of PA and VA Gazette "Had  
>> On & Took
>> With Them" runaway advertisements reveals that even indentured  
>> servant laborers
>> were last seen in their coats.
>
> Wouldn't they have been hot as hell in the warmer months?

The Oldmillrat in Riverside CA

------------------------------------------------------------------------

On Jul 13, 2008, at 7:28 AM, Ray Gardiner wrote:
> This shows a hole at the toe end, also it's a straight blade, and  
> rivetted handle
> http://www.backsaw.net/pics/1600sSwedishSawLarger.jpg
>
> This one, a thing of beauty. Later than the first.
> http://www.backsaw.net/pics/1700sSwedishNibLarger.jpg
>
> Nice bit of Dutch craftsmanship.
> http://www.backsaw.net/pics/1698DutchNibLarger.jpg

	Thanks for the links, Ray.  On the "visual aid" hypothesis, it would  
seem that in use, by the time the sawyer could see these versions of  
the saw tip decorative element (dating from the time some folks  
suggest nibs had a functional purpose), the blade would already be  
out of the kerf.
	And apologies to all for the run-on URLs in the posting I sent in  
the middle of the night.  What a missing caret will get ya, I guess.   
This should go straight to the large and clear image of "Melancholia"  
surrounded by text in Russian:

<http://varvar.ru/arhiv/gallery/nord/durer/durer_master3.html>

And this is the Dutch timmerman with the nibbed saw with pistol-grip  
handle on the ground beside him:

<http://www.geneaknowhow.net/in/beroepen/luyken/timmerman.html>

	Speaking of which, I was hoping our Netherlands Correspondent, or  
maybe someone else who reads Dutch, might be able to provide an  
English translation of the text on this image.  Maybe it reveals the  
mystery of the nib!
		Tom Holloway

------------------------------------------------------------------------

There is a wonderful painting in the Musee D'Orsay in Paris called "the
Floor Planers" done in 1875 and it shows 3 barefoot and shirtless
workers refinishing a floor. At the time it was rejected for its "crude
realism" and "vulgar subject matter". One critic even said of the "that
is so accurate that it makes it bourgeois".

Perhaps no one wanted to admit that workers needed to be comfortable in
their work and they inaccurately portrayed them for the sake of
propriety?

Ed Minch

See the painting at:

http://www.musee-orsay.fr/en/collections/works-in-
focus/painting/commentaire_id/the-floor-planers-
7164.html?tx_commentaire_pi1%5BpidLi%5D=509&tx_commentaire_pi1%5Bfrom%5-
D=841&cHash=72e9505792

 Don McConnell  wrote:

> Gaynor & Hagedorn, in _Tools, Working Wood in Eighteenth-Century
> America_, c. 1993, reproduce an oil painting, ca. 1725, entitled "The
> Carpenter's Yard," by Jack Laguerre. In it, all of the carpenters are
> shown wearing breeches, aprons, stockings, shoes and shirts. Only the
> master and his client are wearing waistcoats and coats.
>> It may well have been that nearly all men wore waistcoats
> and coats when "in public," which might explain the descriptions of
> runaway apprentices as wearing coats, etc. Besides, it could have been
> the easiest way to carry them. But this painting clearly indicates
> that they could be shed, depending on the weather I suppose, while
> actually at work.
>> Don McConnell
> Eureka Springs, AR
>
------------------------------------------------------------------------
> OldTools is a mailing list catering to the interests of hand tool
> aficionados, both collectors and users, to discuss the history, usage,
> value, location, availability, collectibility, and restoration of
> traditional handtools, especially woodworking tools.
>> To change your subscription options:
> http://ruckus.law.cornell.edu/mailman/listinfo/oldtools
>> To read the FAQ:
> http://swingleydev.com/archive/faq.html
>> OldTools archive: http://swingleydev.com/archive/ OldTools@r...
> http://ruckus.law.cornell.edu/mailman/listinfo/oldtools

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------------------------------------------------------------------------

ruby@m... wrote:
>There is a wonderful painting in the Musee D'Orsay in Paris called "the
>Floor Planers" done in 1875 and it shows 3 barefoot and shirtless
>workers refinishing a floor. At the time it was rejected for its "crude
>realism" and "vulgar subject matter". One critic even said of the "that
>is so accurate that it makes it bourgeois".

This is getting radically off-topic, but there are a number of
interesting studies examining the differences in the depiction of
individuals in paintings and in photography as that medium became
common.

The change was particularly striking when the subject was the day-to-day
life of common working folks. Even when laborers are obviously posed --
and it is likely that the subjects may have been spiffed up for the occasion--
the difference is typically significant between what the camera shows
and the pristine, idyllic world in paintings at the same time.

>Perhaps no one wanted to admit that workers needed to be comfortable in
>their work and they inaccurately portrayed them for the sake of
>propriety?

Or more generally, I think that traditionally most folks have not wanted
to look too closely at the accurate details of where most of the items
in their comfortable world come from.

>Ed Minch
>
>See the painting at:
>
>http://www.musee-orsay.fr/en/collections/works-in-
>focus/painting/commentaire_id/the-floor-planers-
>7164.html?tx_commentaire_pi1%5BpidLi%5D=509&tx_commentaire_pi1%5Bfrom%-
>5D=841&cHash=72e9505792
>
>  Don McConnell  wrote:
>
> > Gaynor & Hagedorn, in _Tools, Working Wood in Eighteenth-Century
> > America_, c. 1993, reproduce an oil painting, ca. 1725, entitled
> > "The Carpenter's Yard," by Jack Laguerre. In it, all of the
> > carpenters are shown wearing breeches, aprons, stockings, shoes and
> > shirts. Only the master and his client are wearing waistcoats and
> > coats.
> >
> > It may well have been that nearly all men wore waistcoats and coats
> > when "in public," which might explain the descriptions of runaway
> > apprentices as wearing coats, etc. Besides, it could have been the
> > easiest way to carry them. But this painting clearly indicates that
> > they could be shed, depending on the weather I suppose, while
> > actually at work.
> >
> > Don McConnell Eureka Springs, AR
> >
>-----------------------------------------------------------------------
>-
> > OldTools is a mailing list catering to the interests of hand tool
> > aficionados, both collectors and users, to discuss the history,
> > usage, value, location, availability, collectibility, and
> > restoration of traditional handtools, especially woodworking tools.
> >
> > To change your subscription options:
> > http://ruckus.law.cornell.edu/mailman/listinfo/oldtools
> >
> > To read the FAQ: http://swingleydev.com/archive/faq.html
> >
> > OldTools archive: http://swingleydev.com/archive/
> >
> > OldTools@r...
> > http://ruckus.law.cornell.edu/mailman/listinfo/oldtools
>
>---------------------------------------------------------------------
>Web mail provided by NuNet, Inc. The Premier National provider.
>http://www.nni.com/
>
>-----------------------------------------------------------------------
>-
>OldTools is a mailing list catering to the interests of hand tool
>aficionados, both collectors and users, to discuss the history, usage,
>value, location, availability, collectibility, and restoration of
>traditional handtools, especially woodworking tools.
>
>To change your subscription options:
>http://ruckus.law.cornell.edu/mailman/listinfo/oldtools
>
>To read the FAQ: http://swingleydev.com/archive/faq.html
>
>OldTools archive: http://swingleydev.com/archive/
>
>OldTools@r... http://ruckus.law.cornell.edu/mailman/listinfo/oldtools

------------------------------------------------------------------------

Well. Right, BUT, most people who work in offices wearing three-piece suits
take off their coats, too.  The tradesmen of yore also wore long and well
crafted shop aprons -- something most of us do not.  Our Carhartts and
shitrs catsh the dust, so we also have to change clothes more otten than the
old timers.
 
 
-----Original Message-----
From: oldtools-bounces@r...
[mailto:oldtools-bounces@r...] On Behalf Of Spike
Cornelius
Sent: Saturday, July 12, 2008 7:27 PM
To: Sgt42RHR@a...
Cc: oldtools@r...
Subject: Re: [OldTools] Handsaw Nibs and Early Saws

On Jul 12, 2008, at 5:10 PM, Sgt42RHR@a... wrote:

  BUT I also think
that working wood in a 3-piece suit  isn't practical, and yet those old
timers must have known different.

John opines...

This is certainly a thought to nibble  at.

Cheers,
John

 >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

  With a little shippage,

   They most certainly did NOT work in 3 piece suits! They took their  
coats off, rolled up their sleeves, and worked in vest, shirt and tie!
Let's not be revisionist!

Spike Cornelius
PDX
           Crazy for Shavings

------------------------------------------------------------------------

Keep in mind that fashion dictates in 1775 and 1875 are worlds apart.
 
J~

John M. Johnston,
"There is a fine line between hobby and  mental illness." Dave Barry

In a message dated 7/13/2008 10:03:40 A.M.  Central Daylight Time, 
nichael@s... writes:
ruby@m...  wrote:
>There is a wonderful painting in the Musee D'Orsay in  Paris
>called "the Floor Planers"  done in 1875 and it shows  3
>barefoot and shirtless workers refinishing a floor.  At  the
>time it was rejected for its "crude realism" and  "vulgar
>subject matter".  One critic even said of the "that is  so
>accurate that it makes it bourgeois".

This is getting radically  off-topic, but there are a number of interesting
studies examining the  differences in the depiction of individuals in
paintings and in photography  as that medium became common.

The change was particularly striking when  the subject was the
day-to-day life of common working folks.   Even  when laborers
are obviously posed --and it is likely that the subjects may  have
been spiffed up for the occasion-- the difference is  typically
significant between what the camera shows and the  pristine,
idyllic world in paintings at the same time.

>Perhaps no  one wanted to admit that workers needed to be
>comfortable in their work  and they inaccurately portrayed
>them for the sake of propriety?

Or  more generally, I think that traditionally most folks have not
wanted to look  too closely at the accurate details of where most
of the items in their  comfortable world come from.

>Ed Minch
>
>See the painting  at:
>
>http://www.musee-orsay.fr/en/collections/works-in-focus/painting/commentaire_
id/the-floor-planers-7164.html?tx_commentaire_pi1%5BpidLi%5D=509&tx_commentair
e_pi1%5Bfrom%5D=841&cHash=72e9505792
>
>   Don McConnell  wrote:
>
> > Gaynor  & Hagedorn, in _Tools, Working Wood in
> >  Eighteenth-Century
> > America_, c. 1993, reproduce an oil painting,  ca. 1725,
> > entitled
> > "The Carpenter's Yard," by Jack  Laguerre. In it, all of
> > the
> > carpenters are shown  wearing breeches, aprons, stockings,
> > shoes
> > and shirts.  Only the master and his client are wearing
> > waistcoats
> >  and coats.
> >
> > It may well have been that nearly all men  wore waistcoats
> > and
> > coats when "in public," which  might explain the
> > descriptions of
> > runaway apprentices  as wearing coats, etc. Besides, it
> > could have
> > been the  easiest way to carry them. But this painting
> > clearly
> >  indicates that they could be shed, depending on the
> > weather  I
> > suppose, while actually at work.
> >
> > Don  McConnell
> > Eureka Springs, AR
> >
 

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------------------------------------------------------------------------

Jim:

Kennedy is responsible for at least part of the epidemic of skin cancer.
Believe me, I wear a hat outdoors most of the time.  In the spring and fall
it might be a baseball cap, but in the summer ot has a broad brim against
the Texas sun.

j
 
 

-----Original Message-----
From: oldtools-bounces@r...
[mailto:oldtools-bounces@r...] On Behalf Of James Thompson
Sent: Sunday, July 13, 2008 11:48 AM
To: Andy Barss
Cc: Sgt42RHR@a...; oldtools@r...
Subject: Re: [OldTools] Handsaw Nibs and Early Saws

On a slightly different note, until John Kennedy decided to go  
hatless, it was a very strong custom in this country for men to wear  
hats when they went outside. It was very uncool to show your bare head  
in public.

There was even a country saying, "I'm gonna get my hat!" This meant  
that the person speaking was going to leave, or even quit his job.

On Jul 12, 2008, at 9:52 PM, Andy Barss wrote:

> On Sat, 12 Jul 2008 Sgt42RHR@a... wrote:
>
>> Actually the wearing of coats by labourers  depends on the  
>> century.  In the 1
>> 8th century--even late 18th  century-- men, of almost all stations  
>> of life,
>> would have been in a state  of undress unless they were wearing  
>> their coats.
>> Almost all period  images of 18th century workers...with the  
>> possible exception
>> of farm  hands, are shown wearing breeches (short pants), shirt,  
>> waistcoat,
>> and  coat.  Even the most cursory glance of PA and VA Gazette "Had  
>> On & Took
>> With Them" runaway advertisements reveals that even indentured  
>> servant laborers
>> were last seen in their coats.
>
> Wouldn't they have been hot as hell in the warmer months?

The Oldmillrat in Riverside CA

------------------------------------------------------------------------

Nibness is endless, apparently!

I haven't read ALL the responses on this subject - there is only so much 
time available even to one retired and recovering from hip replacement 
surgery; however, I'm going to pose my question and risk being 
castigated for being less than diligent following threads.

Has anyone posited the possibility that the nib had something to do with 
measurement?

I find functionality for marking the nearing end of a stroke to be, 
well, not credible.  I can't imagine even a first-day apprentice using 
it for such.  Likewise, pure ornamentation seems very unlikely given the 
additional labor - ergo costs - associated with its manufacture.  Some 
function must have been involved in either its use or manufacture, and 
perhaps that function was vestigial and copied per custom; but I can't 
imagine any use having to do with the cutting operations that the 
handsaw performs.  If it were handy for making some arcane measurement, 
perhaps the conundrum would be resolved and a functional use found more 
reasonable.  Could the distance from the outer nib to the handle perhaps 
be a cubit?

I have no basis in fact to support this notion.  It is pure fantasy on 
my part. 

Bob Hutchins, who couldn't resist joining a porch conversation as long 
and persistent as this
Temple, TX, USA

------------------------------------------------------------------------

rhhutchins@h... writes: Has anyone posited the possibility that the nib
had something to do with measurement?

Ah ha! Another explanation. This is excellent because I'm designing a
T-shirt with last 6 inches or so of a clearly nibbed saw in black
outline on the front of the shirt. On the back will be a list of the Top
10 Reasons for the Nib.

I'll be taking orders shortly.

Cheers, John

John M. Johnston, "There is a fine line between hobby and mental
illness." Dave Barry


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music scene in your area - Check out TourTracker.com!
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------------------------------------------------------------------------

Robert Hutchins wrote:

> Has anyone posited the possibility that the nib had something to do with 
> measurement?

   Oh, I like that.  You could mark measurements on the spine of the 
blade with chalk, and the saw would work as a temporary story stick with 
drawer heights and whatnot.  The saw would effectively be used as a hook 
rule.  Nice.  Interesting idea.

M.Mike
------------------------------------------------------------------------

GG's
-----------------------------------------------
Tom asks...
Correct me if I am wrong, but were the Davis level's first
manufactured in the Middle Ages, or did those come about during the height
of the Victorian era when excessive decoration was at it's peak.

-------------------------------------------------

Davis scroll work??? the height of Victorian excess?
He was restrained compared to the late 1500's and early 1600's

1570
www.petermcbride.com/temp/images/1570.jpg
1644
www.petermcbride.com/temp/images/1644.jpg
early 17th century
www.petermcbride.com/temp/images/early17thcentury.jpg

DECORATION....shame we are in plain text...is there a more decorative font
I can use to write that word???

Saws might be saws might be saws...but decoration is another topic all
together.

Many other craftsmen including the compass smiths were in workshops
probably right next door to the saw makers in the 1500's, and for centuries
after that maybe.
Why deny the saw makers the same creative urge.
2000 years ago In Pompeii, on the walls of the House of Vetti, the using of
tools was decoration on the walls.
http://www.petermcbride.com/jewellery_tools/vetti_cupids.jpg

Why is so hard to believe that decoration for its own sake is perfectly
alright in the mind of the maker and user of tools some 300+ years
ago....or even in Roman times.

The ends of the arms on squares from roman times and through the middle
ages were often terminated with decorative curves...perhaps to warn the
user they were near to end of the square....as a visible warning device to
stop moving the inked nib. :-))

Regards
Peter
In Melbourne, VIC Australia

------------------------------------------------------------------------

> This one, a thing of beauty. Later than the first.
> http://www.backsaw.net/pics/1700sSwedishNibLarger.jpg

Well that one clearly is for opening the beer bottle at the end of the day.

- anon

------------------------------------------------------------------------

Spike Cornelius wrote,on my timestamp of 13/07/2008 10:27 AM:

> 
>  With a little shippage,
> 
>   They most certainly did NOT work in 3 piece suits! They took their 
> coats off, rolled up their sleeves, and worked in vest, shirt and tie!
> Let's not be revisionist!

LOL!
I have this feeling there is somewhere a tool maker's tomb shaking with
next-world laughter, while its dweller comments to his friends:
"See, I told you that nib-thing would be picked on by everyone,
forever and ever!"

-- 
Cheers
Nuno Souto
in cold Sydney, Australia
wizofoz@i...
------------------------------------------------------------------------

bob hutchins wrote:

 Likewise, pure ornamentation seems very unlikely given the
additional labor - ergo costs - associated with its manufacture.
  Could the distance from the outer nib to the handle perhaps
be a cubit?

I for one am routinely surprised in this day and age, to find out that 
labor was one of the cheaper aspects of
manufacturing in centuries prior. Raw material and shipping costs were 
a huge part of the bottom line, but the cost of a man's work over the 
course of a day, minimal. No insurance, paid time off, pension or 
social security contributions.

not to diminish any of the fine points, speculation, learned discourse 
that has come before, but it seems to me that
simple decoration of working tools, costing primarily in the labor 
involved, would be an inexpensive addition.

Michael, San Francisco, who found an early 40*s Disston #4 backsaw for 
a dollar among the books and can openers on a
street vendors blanket on Friday. 
------------------------------------------------------------------------

Esteemed Society of the Nib, (and GG's)

Steve Reynolds writes:- 
>=09In that spirit, I want to say that the images of very early nibbed
>saws seem to be more decorative than even Disston's saws. Look at the
>examples that have been linked to in this thread. Those are some
>artistic metalworking, for instance:

>=09Except for the images which have unclear indication that there are
>holes at the end of the blade, none of them seem to a purpose, in my
>opinion. What those holes are used for, I will gladly admit that I
>don't know for sure. Attaching a handle seems to jump right out at me.
>Perhaps not for attaching a second handle, but reattaching the the one
>at the other end for switching from push to pull strokes.
>


Sorry, I scanned at 72 dpi, originally, here are higher resolution scans
of the relevant bits. These are at 300 dpi and a lot clearer.

This shows a hole at the toe end, also it's a straight blade, and
rivetted handle http://www.backsaw.net/pics/1600sSwedishSawLarger.jpg

This one, a thing of beauty. Later than the first.
http://www.backsaw.net/pics/1700sSwedishNibLarger.jpg

Nice bit of Dutch craftsmanship.
http://www.backsaw.net/pics/1698DutchNibLarger.jpg

I see no conflict between the "it's decorative, and can we now please
move on" camp, and the "let's re-discover the long lost secrets of the
past" camp.

At a time when all saws were hand-made one off's it isn't surprising
that the local smith would embellish his work with a bit of a flourish,
it's pretty evident on all one-off tools, (I even do a bit of it
myself!), that doesn't mean however that the particular embellishment
didn't arrive from some earlier forgotten function.

The fact that it was forgotten, however, might mean it's a idea
who's time has passed, like having a blade that can serve in either
a frame saw or a hand saw. Functional, but not needed when you can
have two saws. Or the hand saw blade gets much wider and not
suitable for the bow saw.

Function and beauty are not mutually exclusive, beauty can be in
the graceful lines and appreciation of function. Functional doesn't
mean ugly.

Take a look at Mike Wenzloff's saws, to my eye, that's beauty.
Embellishment is not a pre-requisite for beauty.

Regards Ray Gardiner
------------------------------------------------------------------------

-----Original Message-----
From: oldtools-bounces@r...
[mailto:oldtools-bounces@r...] On Behalf Of Robert
Hutchins
Sent: Sunday, July 13, 2008 6:00 PM
Cc: oldtools@r...
Subject: Re: [OldTools] Handsaw Nibs and Early Saws

> Could the distance from the outer nib to the handle perhaps
> be a cubit?

I dun't tink zo.  First, being that a cubit generally is the distance from
the tip of your middle finger to your elbow, there is no standard length
cubit.  Second, there also are other varying definitions for what a cubit
is.  Finally, there are varying lengths of saws, so the length from the
handle to the nib would be different lengths on different saws.

- Bill T.
- The flagellation of the deceased equine continues...

------------------------------------------------------------------------

The nib is where the painter puts the chimney for the little farmhouse.

------------------------------------------------------------------------

Tom Opfell wrote:
--------that the nib was originally developed to "catch the eye" of the 
operator seems to me to be the most valid that I have yet to hear, 
although clearly as time progressed the "nib" was relegated to 
ornamentation. ---------

Nibblers, Nigglers, Galoots
Doesn't ornamentation catch the eye of the prospective tool buyer 
standing at the shop window?  and isn't marketing a function?  Perhaps a 
very good saw maker put nibs on his saws so that his customers (and 
prospective customers) would recognize his products. Over time other 
makers followed suit, copying his "trade dress" until it became common.

The thrashing of a deceased equine is not as interesting as speculating 
to what led to its' demise

I assume that beating a dead horse was to get the beast up and moving 
again, in which case this topic is not a dead horse but an overworked 
one, probably rented.

Mike

-- 
Michael E. Siemsen
Green Lake Clock Co.
http://www.greenlakeclock.com/
651-257-9166

------------------------------------------------------------------------

Tom Opfell wrote:
>  We do not have a historical reference
> that revels who the first man to put a "nib" on a saw was, or as to what 
> his original idea was.

Can I ask the assembled reference advantaged galoots
what the earliest known reference to a nib is (either
written or graphical) ?

   BugBear
------------------------------------------------------------------------

T&J Holloway wrote:

>     I agree that those on the side of "it's only decorative" are also 
> speculating

I continue to struggle with the notion that something
so small and (to me eye) ugly and vestigial is
"decorative"; indeed, given the beauty of some
of the shaping and carving on saw handles at the period
in question, it almost
seems an insult to the makers' proven abilities.

If those guys had meant the nib to be decorative,
it would be *much* prettier.

Which leaves me believing none of the theories :-(

    BugBear
------------------------------------------------------------------------