Tom,

I guess your timing in bringing up the endless nib question is unfortunate.
The problem is that here on the Porch, we've had this discussion, ad
nauseum, on several prior occasions over the years - so when it comes up
again, we tend to get a little goofy with it.  I recall someone compiling a
canonical list of explanations that have been put forth over the years,
resulting in dozens, if not over a hundred, suggested uses for the nib.
Please don't take it personally.

Several Porch dwellers here have researched various sources and offered up
various potential ideas.  I guess the problem is that there is insufficient
or actually a total lack of evidence to support any particular theory that
has been put forth to explain or provide some sort of utilitarian function
for the nib.  So in my view, it's kind of difficult, and actually pretty
fruitless, to become too closely wed to any particular pet theory.

As I mentioned earlier, to my knowledge (and I would be perfectly happy to
be proven mistaken here), there is no pictorial or textual evidence to
support the conclusion that the nib had any actual "function" to the user at
all.  Moxon and Diderot are well-known for their works documenting and
depicting the use of tools during the time periods we've been discussing.  I
don't have either of their works at my immediate disposal and do not in any
way claim to be an authority on either one, so I'd like it if someone who
does have access to them would let us know if there is any reference of any
kind to the nib or its purported use.

And if the largest saw manufacturer in the world, who had been at it for
something like 60 years at the time, stated, in response to many inquiries,
that the nib was decorative, I consider that to be probative evidence.  Not
necessarily conclusive, of course, but it must be weighed in the balance.

I of course respect your opinion.  I simply don't agree with it.  As I have
said, I'm comfortable with the conclusion that the nib, like many other
features on handsaws, is purely a decorative feature that *could* be used in
certain ways by the user (the one I like best is for tying on a strip of
wood to guard the teeth).  But I've not seen anything that convinces me it
was manufactured with a particular intended utilitarian purpose.

Best regards,

- Bill

-----Original Message-----
From: Tom Opfell [mailto:topfell@a...]
Sent: Saturday, July 12, 2008 6:27 PM
To: Bill Taggart; oldtools@r...
Subject: Re: [OldTools] Handsaw Nibs and Early Saws

Hi Bill,
 I did not say that the nib proved itself over the long run to be usefull. I

only said that when it was first invented it was thought by it's maker to be

a usefull thing. And it just may have well been, judging by the number of
makers who latched on to the idea, and at the time with carpenters who were
acustumed to using a different type of saw. The earlier nibbed saws had a
much larger nib. It was not something that you would have to "watch" for,
and if you are staring at your pencil line and atempting to correct the path

of a wide bladed saw every second of the time, I think that you should
either get a new saw or maybe just relax a little bit more. As I said, it is

just as much a speculation to say that it never had a "function", as to say
that it did. We will never know for sure.
 When Disston began making saws late in the year of 1841, he was attempting
to emulate the look of the English Saw Makers product, as were other
American makers. English saws were considered the best at that time.
Although Disston kept traditional saws in the line up untill the late
1920's, by 1874 a number of different handle changes began to take place.
Having won the public's trust, Disston was now free to modernize the handles

of his saws, making them more effective to use.
 I certainly respect your subjective option, hope that you respect mine, but

also wonder as to how carefully you have researched the matter.
Kindest Regards,
Tom
----- Original Message -----
From: "Bill Taggart" 
To: "'Tom Opfell'" ; 
Sent: Saturday, July 12, 2008 5:44 PM
Subject: RE: [OldTools] Handsaw Nibs and Early Saws

> If the nib was so useful to the workman on those earlier saws and made it
> easier or somehow more efficient in use, why did it wither and die?
> Wouldn't the workman who had grown up and been trained on large-nibbed
> saws
> demand the same or similar nib when they bought new saws?  Are the nibless
> saws more complicated to learn to use, as they lack the eye-catching
> device?
>
>
> Mr. Hibbens's speculation seems just that to me - speculation.  Having
> used
> handsaws for a couple years - admittedly not 35 - it just doesn't make
> sense
> or ring true to me.  Is the argument that workmen in the 17th century
> watched for the nib to emerge from the cut, rather than watching the line
> they were sawing to?
>
> We can all speculate lots of interesting "functions" for the nib, and some
> have pet theories they like quite well.
>
> I don't see it as needing any particular function.  What is the function
> of
> the tiny little curvy notch at the top of the handle shown here?
> http://www.disstonianinstitute.com/9page/no9h3.jpg
>
> What's the function of wheat-carving on a handle?
>
> What's the function of the "fishtail" or "birdsmouth" notch at the bottom
> of
> smaller backsaw handles (for example:
> http://www.finetoolj.com/LN/images/LNDOVETAIL.jpg)
>
> I don't see a need for every little notch and projection on a tool to
> serve
> some functional purpose.  A lot of it is frippery to make it more
> aesthetically appealing.  In my workshop, the nib falls into that
> category,
> as there seems to be no contemporaneous documentation or depictions of it
> being used in any functional way.
>
> - Bill T.
>
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: oldtools-bounces@r...
> [mailto:oldtools-bounces@r...] On Behalf Of Tom Opfell
> Sent: Saturday, July 12, 2008 4:48 PM
> To: oldtools@r...
> Subject: [OldTools] Handsaw Nibs and Early Saws
>
> My Dear Porch Sitters,
> I would like to thank all that sent me a warm welcome after my first
> posting. I now realize that by admitting to having an sickening obsession
> with handsaws has put me in the "collector" camp in the eyes of many of
> the
> user types reading these posts. Let me assure those persons that after
> earning my living for 35 years as a carpenter, that I do indeed know which
> end of a saw to pick up.
> To those who have little interest in the historical aspects of woodworking
> tools and view discussions of saw nibs and early handsaws as comical, a
> waste of time, or just plain ridiculous, will probably find little to
> interest themselves here.
> There certainly is no definitive answer to the question of "what was the
> original purpose of the saw nib?". We do not have a historical reference
> that revels who the first man to put a "nib" on a saw was, or as to what
> his
>
> original idea was. Nor do we have a dinfinitive reference as to why some
> twenty succeeding generations of saw makers copied this early pioneer's
> idea. About these maters we can only speculate. The idea that the nib was
> always intended to be purely decorative is just as speculative as the idea
> that the nib served a purpose. We can only look at the artifacts and try
> to
> arrive at intelligent conclusions.
> Although I would not be surprised if some pictorial reference to a saw
> having what looked like a "nib" turned up from 2000 years ago, for the
> most
> part in the we can assume that in middle Europe the "nib" first began to
> appear on short wide blade saws, having blades which were nearly
> rectangular
>
> (very slight taper in width) in cross section and had a straight cutting
> edge.
> These saws are believed to have been the result of improvements in the
> materials (carbonized iron) in which the saw maker had at his despoil. The
> blades on these wide, straight, bladed saws are believed to have been
> thinner than the narrow bladed curved sword like saws that had been in use
> throughout the middle ages. The curve of the blade on the saws of the
> middle
>
> ages(and earlier) was not merely a decorative feature but served to
> stiffen
> it while minimizing it's thickness. Pictorial examples of these narrow
> bladed sword like saws often show the teeth cutting on the push stroke on
> larger models while the smaller examples often on the pull.
> It should be noted that saws of both pull and push stroke go back to the
> stone age and that while most early copper saws would have been toothed to
> cut on the pull stroke, many of the later bronze types cut on the push. It
> was a matter of achieving the required stiffness while maintaining the
> requisite thinness to minimize material remodel, making sawing quicker and
> less labor intensive. This is certainly the reason why frame saws were so
> popular and many countries early on, and nearly abandoned the handsaw or
> at
> least minimized it's usage.
> These early "nibbed" wide bladed saws which began appearing circa the
> 1600's
>
> were often categorized by a dramatically rounded toe having a large radius
> of some 2 or 3 inches. Should we ask ourselves "why the dramatically
> rounded
>
> toe"? Was it purely decorative? Well, some flat earthers might think so,
> but
>
> it probably did have an intended purpose of making the saw more user
> friendly buy allowing it to get into tighter spaces, sawing up against an
> obstacle, freedom from pain when dropping on your toe, etc.
> On those early "nibbed" saws, which are generally fairly short in length,
> we
>
> progress up the blade from the rounded toe to find a very large bulbous
> "nib" which would clearly "catch the eye" of a carpenter as the saw was in
> use. It should also be noted that these early wide, rectangular shaped,
> thin
>
> bladed saws, with round toe and large nib, are most often depicted as
> cutting on the pull stroke, unlike many of the earlier curved bladed, nib
> less, saws which often cut on the push stroke.
> For those that have decried the "nib" is not large enough to "catch the
> eye"
>
> or that saw is moving to fast to see the nib are not thinking about a saw
> from the 17th Century, but are referring to there own experience with the
> tiny nibbed saws from the 18th and 19th Century.
> As handsaws progressed, in Europe, in the 18th century the blades
> developed
> a much greater taper (not so rectangular) being much narrower at the toe.
> The nibs progressively got smaller and the rounding of the toe was not as
> dramatic. As the development of steel and the art of smithing progressed
> the
>
> blades became stiffer and thinner and the teeth began to revert back to a
> push stroke.
> By the beginning of 18th Century the English were turning the production
> of
> handsaws into an art form. The creation of the guilds of the middle ages
> had
>
> turned tool production into a very specialized affair. I have often heard
> the tale that the "nib" was a trade mark of the saw makers guild (or the
> cutlers guild, which later incorporated saw making), but have found no
> documentary of this folklore either. It is clear that during the 18th and
> 19th centuries the "nib" became an expression of the art of saw making.
> Before the age of machinery and mass production, the "nib" allowed the saw
> maker to display his skill in working with metal. Saw handles were often
> bought by the maker from an outside source by this time. Certainly to the
> buyer, an artfully done decoration on the back of the saw plate, would
> give
> an assurance that the article had been produced by an accomplished maker.
> When the sons of Henry Disston made the statement (ca,1900) that the nib
> was
>
> purely decorative and served no useful purpose, they were most certainly
> referring to the saws that they were making at that time. They most likely
> published this statement in response to all the enquiries that had been
> received, inquiring as to it's purpose. They did not say that the "nib"
> had
> never, throughout history, served a purpose.
> When the "nib" was first developed in the middle ages, excessive
> ornamentation was not the norm. Saws were rather plane and purposeful
> looking, lacking the frills of the later era. It is not that far of a
> stretch to envision that there was originally a useful purpose for that
> bit
> of ornamentation. After all, tools were not intended to be art, and nearly
> all of the design decisions that have occurred throughout the history of
> there making, were intended to improved there usefulness, no mater how
> wacky
>
> the idea may have been. I see little reason to suspect that this was not
> the
>
> case in the development of the saw "nib".
> The reasoned speculation by Thomas Hibben, in his book concerning the
> history of types and the methods of construction of carpenters tools from
> the stone age to the 18th century, that the nib was originally developed
> to
> "catch the eye" of the operator seems to me to be the most valid that I
> have
>
> yet to hear, although clearly as time progressed the "nib" was relegated
> to
> ornamentation.
> Regards,
> Tom
>
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