Item Subject: Text Item
     GGs,

     Got some questions re: two man saw techniques.

     Storm rumbled through this weekend and took out the neighbors 90'
     Poplar (Quacking Aspen, trash tree, Jeff ;-)  George was out of town,
     Maryann called to say that a branch had let go.  I walked over to find
     90' of branch over.  Rode two other trees down.  I had my one man cc
     w/ me.  Turned around and went to get the ch*in S*w.  Promptly broke
     the recoil cord.  Went at it w/ the one man and cut it up into 8'
     lengths.  (20 strokes will go through 6")  Another neighbor came over
     to give me a hand and we fired up the two man cc.  Boy does that work
     well!  We took down the remaining 15' butt of the tree.  He fired up
     his chainsaw and we found that using the two man was a bit faster
     getting through the log!  (That is, given that you could keep up the
     pace.)    So while we were listening to the pheasants cackle (read
     no excess noise!) we discussed what the proper form for using a 2 man
     cc.

     Soo, any youse a pro in using two man cc?  Any techniques to share?
     As an example, on the pull stroke, do you pull straight across or dip
     down and take more out on the near side?

     BTW, both saws worked well even w/out having the rakers swaged.
     (thanks for the info Nathan!)

     Bruce

     Who has discovered a pretty darn effective aerobic exercise.

BRUCE_VANSLOUN@H... wrote:
>
>      Soo, any youse a pro in using two man cc?  Any techniques to share?
>      As an example, on the pull stroke, do you pull straight across or dip
>      down and take more out on the near side?

I'll claim no expertise, but it seems to me that the normal arc'd design
of the saw should perform the equivilent of dipping one end down, albeit
the far side from the pulling party.

In other words, just pull it straight across.  (Unless, of course, it
has a straight blade, in which case the question is restated. :-) )

Ed

Hopefully this doesn't get lost in the shuffle of FMM, anyway here goes.

    I live in Billings, MT work in a bank and officiate basketball on the
side.  Married, 29 years old, no children.  Previous to my banking, I worked
for  the U.S. Forest Service for 8 years, as both a seasonal and fulltime
Wilderness Guard in the Bob Marshall Wilderness of North Central Montana.
Great job, horseback 150+ days a year in the backcountry (no supervisors
within two days ride.)  Learned all about crosscut saws and bucksaws.  I'll
followup the thread on two man saws separately.

    Rather new at this woodworking/old tool stuff, although my father was a
shop teacher for seven years.  SWMBO bought me some clamps, mitre saw, and a
Workmate for this past Christmas, in order to make her some picture frames.
I made one.  Needed way more tools ;-)  So proceeded to search my fathers,
grandfathers, uncle's shops for tools they no longer "needed".  My dad's and
uncle's stuff was mostly pretty basic stuff (chisels, tape, bevel).  But
grampa had stuff that I needed to know more about.  A few planes (15),
wooden planes (7), 4 brace and bits, lots of saws, marking gauges, etc.  He
said he had no use for all that junk, so I relieved him of the bulk of it.
After gathering the haul, I started searching to identify the individual
planes.  Turns out, I did alright   Two #45's (even the slitters),  #2,
#3, #4, #4 1/2  all early types (<10) I figured were the best finds.  I
haven't found a type study for the #45's, any help?

    The Workmate quickly proved inadequate, so a trip to the lumberyard
yielded way more maple than I intended, oh well.  Eventually a work bench
was completed, 2 vises, more chisels were needed of course.  Next, all I
could think about was how to get my next lumber purchase to my shop.  SWMBO
doesn't understand the necessity of such a large bench, and the quantities
of wood and tools needed for making picture frames.  So, a jewelry box was
made as a goodwill offering.  Most of my projects, to date have been things
of that size, I think a entertainment center may be my next project.
Although I may have to put that off, until I get the proper tools for a
project of that size ;-)

Todd Hiner
thiner@m...

Subject: Re: Two man saws.

>BRUCE_VANSLOUN@H... wrote:
>>
>>      Soo, any youse a pro in using two man cc?  Any techniques to share?
>>      As an example, on the pull stroke, do you pull straight across or
dip
>>      down and take more out on the near side?
>
>I'll claim no expertise, but it seems to me that the normal arc'd design
>of the saw should perform the equivilent of dipping one end down, albeit
>the far side from the pulling party.

    I have always wondered when I might make use of the knowledge gained
from 8 years of manual labor (i.e. no mechanized/power tools) in the Bob
Marshall Wilderness available.  The technique I have been taught basically
is:
1) NEVER push, not only is it not effective, it messes up your partner's
rhythm.
2) After pulling, relax your arms, and raise your handle 3-4 inches before
your partner's pull stroke.
3) Generally, just pull straight back on the saw.  That is, don't force it
into the cut to take a bigger bite than your partner's lift has provided.
4) If their is ANY chance of binding the saw in the kerf, use wedges.  Trust
me on this, chopping three-fourths of the way through a 40 inch dia. tree.
is no fun.

Hopefully this helps.  These tips are for a simple cut made from the top of
the horizontal tree.  Different techniques may be needed to fall timber or
to make cuts where their may be bind (down pressure) present.

Todd Hiner
thiner@m...

Bruce queries about two man CC technique...
snippage...

Bruce,
Two-man CC'ing does not require rocket scientists!  Most of the guys who used
these things never had enough education to sing  the national anthem,  or
sign their own name.  They worked until a  widowmaker squashed them like a
bark beetle, and then were replaced by another faceless worker. Life was
getting drunk on friday night and ransacking the saloon. I can't imagine that
lumberjacks were the least bit introspective, or concerned about productivity,
past what it took to keep the foreman off their back.  It was NOT  a pastime
for the rich and famous!  As with most old tools,  they worked well with a
small bit of brainpower,  or they got discarded quickly.  If they tended to be
hard to use,  or hard to figure out,  no one would waste time with them.  I
think sometimes we tend to romanticize these tools,  when in reality,  the
folks who used them were very simple folk.  The skills are a lot like riding a
bike,  very basic and self-proving.
On the pull stroke,  it depends on how much belly the saw has.  Don't forget
that the back cut needs to be nice and straight across,  or else you risk a
tear-off.  This assumes you're felling,  not just cleaning up a windthrow.
Basic felling is always the same, regardless of what tools are used.  The
notch bottom must be clean and perpendicular to the desired line of fall,
(most folks make the notch way too deep and large)  and the back cut should be
parallel to,  and slightly above the bottom of the notch.  This makes a good
even thickness hinge,  and a safe fall.  There are times when the back cut
will be angled,  such as "holding a corner"  to steer a tree,  (very risky!)
or when felling a bad leaner,  to keep it from splitting up before it's ready
to fall. (deadly!)
In all cases,  I try to keep the sawline straight across,  and this helps me
keep the bottom of the cut clean and in control.  If you do this,  the proper
number of teeth will always be engaged. I've seen various techniques,  but
mine is based on safety and common sense.  I also believe this is where the
term "different strokes for different folks"  was first coined?  
On the return stroke,  a bit of english can be used to keep the saw from
fluttering and making the pull harder for your partner. You'll feel what's
required here,  if you have good hands.  On being pulled thru a cut,  the saw
has a tendency to chatter,  and this can be countered by proper english. Think
of it as sending a ripple down the length of the saw,  like cracking a whip,
while at the same time keeping proper tension on it.  (spincasters will
understand this best!)  Don't overdo it,  or you'll induce a flutter also.
This takes a bit of finessing,  and a measure of oil, but it's harder to
explain than to do.  I like to compare it to a 'lectric scroll saw with a C-
arm blade arrangement.  Too much tension will increase the sawing effort
greatly,  while not enough will cause the blade to flutter and break.  If both
guys  can pull away from each other at the same time they go back and forth,
bingo!   Last, too much  set makes the saw hard to control and keep on the cut
line.  Not enough makes for lots of distortion and flutter.  But when it's set
right,  look out!

regards,

Nick          then           Bruce
Nick          then           Bruce
Nick          then           Bruce

Cougarjack@a... wrote:

 Nuts & bolts stuff snipped; poetry left:

>  a bit of english can be used...
>  You'll feel what's
>  required here,  if you have good hands.

Sounds like a good wrist shot. Keep the puck on the heel of the blade,
shift your weight, spring the stick a little, soft hands, use the
Force...just enough snap as the rubber leaves the toe........oh geez!
YESSS!  Nice goal, eh!

Chuck Lewis
(Hockey tonite...good thing there's a TV in the shop)