OldTools Archive
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265431 | Don Schwartz <dks@t...> | 2018‑03‑15 | fettling a scraper plane |
So I have had this scraper plane for quite some time now, a Stanley No112 (honking big scraper that looks like a plane Jeff). A round to-it suddenly appeared and I decided I should begin using the beast. So I honed a nice 45deg angle plus micro-bevels front and back on the Hock iron that came with it . And have given it a wee bit of a hook. The iron cuts beautifully hand-held. But even when set to a high angle, close to 85deg from horizontal, the 112 is acting like a plane that's worn down in all the wrong places, either not cutting at all, or cutting too deep ( shavings of 4-5 thou instead of the whisper-thin bits I get from a cabinet scraper). And so it is, worn down a little more than 3 thou fore and aft of the mouth. So I guess I need to flatten it out some. Initially, I was thinking it wouldn't be as fussy a job as flattening a plane sole, but now I'm thinking that since I want whisper-thin shavings, I may have to spend some considerable effort to get it as flat as pee on a plate. I have some good Alox papers glued to glass, so I'm equipped for the task, but given the size of the real estate, this will take a while... So here's my specific question: how flat will I need it to be to give whisper-thin? Do I need perfection or can I do with less? More generally, how is it that plane soles wear most where it most matters? Why is it concentrated around the mouth? I think I understand wear at the heel and toe, and maybe along the sole in front of the iron, but why right behind the iron, when the wood surface it passes over has already been reduced? Don -- I have decided to leave my past behind. So, if I owe you money...I am sorry, but I’ve moved on. The harder they come, the bigger they fall." Ry Cooder |
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265434 | Claudio DeLorenzi <claudio@d...> | 2018‑03‑15 | Re: fettling a scraper plane |
It’s physics. When lapping, you have to flip the top and bottom every cycle, because the top wears concave, and the bottom wears convex. In fact, any wear surfaces, like machine ways do the same. Gravity is pulling down on the top part as it slides and overhangs the bottom part, wearing the edge of the bottom anything, and the center of the top anything (eg a topslide. ) It’s how you get the concave surfaces you want when making a telescope mirror, by keeping the lap under and the glass on top. So anything that gets pushed over the edges will eventually get a concave bottom. Plus, this is a common fault in wood planing, creating a banana instead of a flat plane. Cheers Claudio |
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265437 | Matthew Groves <grovesthegrey@g...> | 2018‑03‑15 | Re: fettling a scraper plane |
I think you answered your own question. When using a card scraper there is no sole at all, or you could think about it as a highly disfigured sole that doesn’t even touch the wood. Your whispy thin shavings can come with the sole just as it already is. Your iron might not as sharp as you think. You can remove it from the plane and test it like a card scraper. Matthew Groves Springfield, MO |
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265438 | "professor@f..." <professor@f...> | 2018‑03‑15 | Re: fettling a scraper plane |
I'm stating up front that I can't answer your question directly because I have not taken the steps to flatten a sole as you're contemplating. I have a L-N large scraper plane (patterned on the Stanley #112)with an original L-N blade that has a similar problem in the sole and the same performance. It has not seen enough use to cause the issue through wear. I did acquire it second-hand and the sole did not have any evidence that it touched wood. I believe the previous owner sold it rather than deal with the issue. OTOH I have a Stanley #12 with a dead flat sole and a Hock blade that performs admirably. I admit that I have not taken the trouble to contact Lie-Nielsen Tool Works about the sole on the #112 since the #12 fills the gap in my arsenal, so I don't know what their take is on the flat sole effect. Frank S in IA On Thursday, March 15, 2018 7:48 AM, Matthew Groves |
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265439 | Claudio DeLorenzi <admin@d...> | 2018‑03‑15 | Re: fettling a scraper plane |
For what it's worth I had this issue last year with some highly figured walnut crotch. Just maybe these thick blades are not better than the thin ones on the original Stanley model? I know it's heresy to think that thin blades might be better. If you have an old hand saw which isn't pitted (and not otherwise valuable), cut a new blade for your scraper plane out of it. Try that and see if you find the same results I did. The LN Co has a video where Deneb fettles one (I can't recall on what webpage it's linked from, but Google it). I tried the method shown but it wasn't good for the wood I was scraping (I bought one to try). Didn't someone here also mention wiping the wood with denatured alcohol occasionally? ...maybe that helped, not really sure. One more thing about the thinblades- Finding the right height, so that it takes a cut without the thin blade making a clicking sound (it shouldn't snap back) at the end of each stroke is the tricky part. How hard is your wood? The softer it is, the more difficult it will be to scrape. Claudio On Mar 15, 2018 9:06 AM, "professor@f..." < professor@f...> wrote: |
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265441 | Claudio DeLorenzi <admin@d...> | 2018‑03‑15 | Re: Bought an old bench. |
That's outstanding! Nice score Stacey. It's a good 'un. Cheers Claudio PS tradition dictates we have to give you an enthusiastic ''you suck'" for such an amazing buy. On Mar 15, 2018 10:57 AM, |
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265442 | Kirk Eppler <eppler.kirk@g...> | 2018‑03‑15 | Re: fettling a scraper plane |
On Wed, Mar 14, 2018 at 11:14 PM, Don Schwartz |
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265443 | Paul Drake <bdbafh@g...> | 2018‑03‑15 | Re: fettling a scraper plane |
Kirk, I prefer taking apart a feeler gauge and using a couple of pieces parallel to the blade to set the height. What pieces I last used eludes me. Paul |
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265444 | Kirk Eppler <eppler.kirk@g...> | 2018‑03‑15 | Re: Bought an old bench. |
On Thu, Mar 15, 2018 at 8:05 AM, |
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265445 | Kirk Eppler <eppler.kirk@g...> | 2018‑03‑15 | Re: fettling a scraper plane |
On Thu, Mar 15, 2018 at 8:43 AM, Paul Drake |
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265446 | Paul Drake <bdbafh@g...> | 2018‑03‑15 | Re: fettling a scraper plane |
Kirk, Hang hole? 1 April ain't for a couple more weeks. I don't yet have standing here to suggest that the spittoon get a cleaning. I'd gladly rescue any plane even a maroon colored one with a plastic adjuster knob from having a hang hole bored. Thanks for the chuckle. Paul |
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265447 | Claudio DeLorenzi <claudio@d...> | 2018‑03‑15 | Re: fettling a scraper plane |
Hey Kirk Say more about this after your meeting- very interested C |
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265448 | Dragon List <dragon01list@g...> | 2018‑03‑15 | Re: fettling a scraper plane |
for everyone's information, a cut sheet of 20 lb. white bond (75 g/m^2, of any post-consumer waste content, any size i've measured) is specified in the USA to mic at 0.0040". i've been in and around the printing business the last 22 years, and that's a pretty fixed standard. so you can shim to your heart's content, at least up to about four sheets (before you might get deformation issues in the stock). i can't speak to the specs of paper sourced for our european, antipodean, or other brethren scattered about the place. bill felton, ca On Thu, Mar 15, 2018 at 11:53 AM Kirk Eppler |
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265449 | Ed Minch <ruby1638@a...> | 2018‑03‑15 | Re: Bought an old bench. |
Beauty, eh? Ed Minch |
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265450 | Don Schwartz <dks@t...> | 2018‑03‑15 | Re: fettling a scraper plane |
On 2018-03-15 9:39 AM, Kirk Eppler wrote: > > > On Wed, Mar 14, 2018 at 11:14 PM, Don Schwartz |
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265453 | Kirk Eppler <eppler.kirk@g...> | 2018‑03‑16 | Re: fettling a scraper plane |
On Thu, Mar 15, 2018 at 9:20 AM, Claudio DeLorenzi |
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265454 | Kirk Eppler <eppler.kirk@g...> | 2018‑03‑16 | Re: fettling a scraper plane |
On Thu, Mar 15, 2018 at 4:52 PM, Don Schwartz |
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265457 | sdarring@i... | 2018‑03‑16 | Re: Bought an old bench. |
Thanks everyone. I really didn't need another bench, but just could not walk away from it. It needs a few repairs, but should turn out great eventually. (When I get around to it...) For now, I plan to just clean it, then see what it wants me to do. Stacey Quoting Ed Minch |
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265460 | Ed Minch <ruby1638@a...> | 2018‑03‑16 | Re: Bought an old bench. |
> On Mar 15, 2018, at 11:47 PM, sdarring@i... wrote: > > > For now, I plan to just clean it, then see what it wants me to do. Looks big enough for a queen size mattress. Ed |
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265461 | Don Schwartz <dks@t...> | 2018‑03‑16 | Re: fettling a scraper plane |
On 2018-03-15 6:04 PM, Kirk Eppler wrote: > Here is the Hamler post on Knots about using the thin blade > > http://forums.finewoodworking.com/fine-woodworking-knots/hand-tools /help-ln-112-scraper-plane">http://forums.finewoodworking.com/fine-woodworking- knots/hand-tools/help-ln-112-scraper-plane > > > And Another one as well > > http://forums.finewoodworking.com/fine-woodworking-knots/power-tools- and-machinery/has-anyone-used-lie-nielsen-112">http://forums.finewoodworking.com /fine-woodworking-knots/power-tools-and-machinery/has-anyone-used-lie- nielsen-112 > > > But seriously, poke through our archives, lots of great stuff on getting > the 112 to work. That's where I just found an error in my first post. I > sharpen my 112 blade at 60°. Really hard to do with most jigs due to the > width at 2-7/8" Thanks! I hadn't seen that. The first link was particularly interesting. I do have card scrapers I could try using in the plane, but will continue with the thicker Hock iron for the present. Hammler mentions his spring-adjust modification for the No.112. I came across this video of some his modifiications, and it was among them, briefly shown after he discusses his modified 212 design. They come at about 12 minutes into this video https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fNw_SeH0JRk What a productive guy! Don -- I have decided to leave my past behind. So, if I owe you money...I am sorry, but I’ve moved on. The harder they come, the bigger they fall." Ry Cooder |
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265462 | John Ruth <johnrruth@h...> | 2018‑03‑16 | Re: Bought an old bench. |
Stacey, Good plan: Clean it and "let it talk to you." You may see signs of changes and repairs made over the several decades, perhaps more than a century, since the bench was made. Look for dates and names, which are always fun to find. With today's on-line resources, you may even be able to identify any name that you find. This bench has a story. Your job is to discover that story and document it here to whatever extent you can. Joints dovetailed? What sort of fasteners, factory-made or blacksmith made? Wood species? Tool marks? And, hey, the recent thread about removing crud may be very helpful. |
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265465 | scott grandstaff <scottg@s...> | 2018‑03‑16 | Re: fettling a scraper plane |
>> Here is the Hamler post on Knots about using the thin blade >> >> http://forums.finewoodworking.com/fine-woodworking-knots/hand-tools /help-ln-112-scraper-plane">http://forums.finewoodworking.com/fine-woodworking- knots/hand-tools/help-ln-112-scraper-plane Hamler is a genius of our time. His mind is simply beyond the rest of us. When he is feeling good its like standing next to a charging locomotive. You just stand there with your eyes open trying to follow it all. Once in a great while I get to sneak in something he hasn't thought of. But its so rare.. hahahahaha Anyway thin scraper blades rock! They flex. All the original Stanley blades are very thin. I had a #85 for years and it came with a very thin blade. Second part of the magic is relieving the frog or blade holder --behind the blade---. I restored a #81 (pretty frame scraper with a wood sole, Jeff) and made a very tight mouth, thinking this may improve performance. I made a thick blade from an old circular saw blade and honed it. Awful!! Chatter, hard pushing, impossible to set. EEEEEEEEEYUCK! So I shaved a little wood from the sole behind the blade, Yup, right where you want the support on a plane, you relieve it on a scraper. (Stanley sometimes used a bed liner shim, that stopped 1/4" short of the mouth leaving the blade to dangle) And I cut out a nice thin "old handsaw" blade. This time I didn't even need to hone it or burnish at all. A good thorough drawfiling at 45 degrees, and who cares from accurate degrees. Take it out the vise and OMG Set the blade for any shaving you like. Leave it way out rank and it hogs with wild abandon. Practically a scrub of a scraper. Set it close and whisper thin shavings all day long. I really have no idea who started the thicker blade craze for scrapers. But they were wrong. Dead wrong. yours Scott -- ******************************* Scott Grandstaff Box 409 Happy Camp, Ca 96039 scottg@s... http://www.snowcrest.net/kitty/sgrandstaff/ http://www.snowcrest.net/kitty/hpages/index.html |
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265466 | Ed Minch <ruby1638@a...> | 2018‑03‑16 | Re: fettling a scraper plane |
Got curious and measured the thickness of about 30 Stanley planes and the 3 Stanley scraper blades I am sure were intended to go into scrapers. Almost all plane blades are .075" (give or take a couple of thou either way, and this is true of #2-#8, regardless of age. There are an occasional .085 thrown in there - again regardless of plane size, and there is even a .1 - it has a “V” logo, pre WW1. 3 Sargents and 3 Milers Fallses (sp?) all had .075. The 2 #12 scraper blades are .045. My favorite scraper “plane”, the #80, has a .045 original Ed Minch |
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265468 | scott grandstaff <scottg@s...> | 2018‑03‑16 | Re: fettling a scraper plane |
Well it occurred to me it was hard to describe what I was talking about, so I tried to draw you guys a pic. Never was any good as an artist but maybe this will help. Use your imagination..................... http://users.snowcrest.net/kitty/sgrandstaff/images/oldtools/scraperbed.jpg The "frog" stops short leaving the blade to dangle, and there is a little relief behind the blade through the sole. This allows the thin blade to flex, instead of a rigid mounting. That flex makes a nearly impossible tool into a very tame one anyone can set up and make use of. There is a reason the #80 outsold all other scrapers combined. First, it was cheap, but with the thin blade incorporating flex room, and easy set? Its a wonderful effective tool! No shop anywhere should be without one. The only real advise I have for using a scraper plane (once you have it cutting) is to watch the very ends of the workpiece. Try a wild skew when working the very ends. There is a tendency to dig in at the end, so you need to counter that. Attacking from another angle besides straight down the work, and skewing the tool, helps a lot. yours again Scott -- ******************************* Scott Grandstaff Box 409 Happy Camp, Ca 96039 scottg@s... http://www.snowcrest.net/kitty/sgrandstaff/ http://www.snowcrest.net/kitty/hpages/index.html |
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265473 | Matt Cooper <manocooper@l...> | 2018‑03‑16 | Re: Bought an old bench. |
Is there a hall table in your future? Or possibly a side table in the dining room? Yeah that's the ticket. Sent from my Sprint Samsung Galaxy S8+. -------- Original message -------- From: sdarring@i... Date: 3/15/18 23:47 (GMT-05:00) To: Ed Minch |
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265476 | Don Schwartz <dks@t...> | 2018‑03‑16 | Re: fettling a scraper plane: final installment |
On 2018-03-16 11:23 AM, scott grandstaff wrote: > > The only real advise I have for using a scraper plane (once you have > it cutting) is to watch the very ends of the workpiece. > Try a wild skew when working the very ends. There is a tendency to > dig in at the end, so you need to counter that. > > Attacking from another angle besides straight down the work, and > skewing the tool, helps a lot. > yours again Scott Boy that was good timing Scott! I was about to report on my findings this morning when I saw this. First thing I did today was ensure that my practice board was reasonably flat, as Tom suggested. It wasn't quite, so I touched it up - good enough for smoothing. Then I tried scraping with the same settings I had yesterday, with no perceptible improvement. Chatter, 0.005 shavings, etc. Next I inclined the blade bed ( frog?) 5.1 deg forward of vertical. Reset the iron on the glass surface, & hammer-adjusted for equal cutting side to side. I expected a more aggressive cut due to the angle, but I was wrong. I got smaller 0.003in shavings, no chatter, and a nice surface sheen on the cherry. Then I adjusted the angle of incline to 5.85 deg,and found I can consistently get shavings of 0.001-0.002in on cherry, with very low effort. Ditto for mahogany and white oak. Sweet! I switched over to my project shelves two of which didn't respond as well to smoothing as I'd wanted. I got the same results as above. Easy going, whispy shavings, and a lovely surface. Skewing helps, as Scott says. Only thing is I found I had to be very careful both starting and stopping, because the iron wants to dig in. The mouth on this plane is wide open! I had to be mindful of starting with downward pressure on the front knob, and finishing with light pressure on the tote when finishing the stroke, lifting the front knob very slightly. Very little downward pressure in the middle of the stroke. Kirk: I couldn't find your posts in the archives. Too many hits! So, that's it. Except for some niggling details. I started this thread by asking about flattening the sole of the Stanley 112, then went ahead and started flattening before I had a response. But I didn't finish the flattening, because I started believing maybe it wasn't necessary, thanks to Matthew Groves. Maybe it isn't. Or maybe if I continued flattening, the plane would be more manageable at the beginning and end of a stroke. Maybe. I might do that sometime, just to see. Second, Scott and others speak strongly in favour of thin irons for these planes, and they may be better - or not. But I have a fairly thick one working for me, so for now I'll 'dance with the one who brung me'. Third, Kirk and Brent both recommend bevel angles widely different from the traditional 45 deg which I have stuck with, 60 and 30 degrees respectively. I respect those opinions, but won't be going down that rabbit hole anytime soon. Too much grinding of good steel would be required! Somewhere in his writing, the esteemed Mr. Hamler suggests burnishing a hook, then folding it over onto the iron, and creating and burnishing a new hook there. What's that about? Finally, I'd like to register my vote for this Stanley No.112 scraper plane being the fussiest, most finnickety plane ever! FWIW Don, getting ready to wax a shovel and attack some heavy wet white stuff impeding passage to the bins in the alley -- I have decided to leave my past behind. So, if I owe you money...I am sorry, but I’ve moved on. The harder they come, the bigger they fall." Ry Cooder |
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265478 | scott grandstaff <scottg@s...> | 2018‑03‑16 | Re: fettling a scraper plane: final installment |
You are absolutely right concerning the angle a scraper meets the wood. Try it yourself guys. Stand a card scraper nearly straight up. Push It hogs, I mean hogs the wood. But take the same scraper and lean it forward 20 degrees. Now push. It peels off dust! And you have anywhere inbetween, on the fly. I use this trick all the time working a hand (card) scraper. Stand it up to cut, lay it over to finish. ;) On one of my homemade plane totes, I scraped it start to finish. No sandpaper ever touched it. Scraping this way puts you through all the scraper angles and all the grain attack angles. Every single one. Plus the trick of sliding sideways as you push. If you want to really learn scraping, do a tote. haahaah (rosewood and all of the hardest woods are the easiest to scrape) > > getting ready to wax a shovel and attack some heavy wet white stuff my man yours Scott -- ******************************* Scott Grandstaff Box 409 Happy Camp, Ca 96039 scottg@s... http://www.snowcrest.net/kitty/sgrandstaff/ http://www.snowcrest.net/kitty/hpages/index.html |
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265479 | Don Schwartz <dks@t...> | 2018‑03‑16 | Re: fettling a scraper plane: final installment |
On 2018-03-16 3:08 PM, scott grandstaff wrote: > Stand a card scraper nearly straight up. Push > It hogs, I mean hogs the wood. > But take the same scraper and lean it forward 20 degrees. Now push. > It peels off dust! > And you have anywhere inbetween, on the fly. The weird thing about the 112 is that the further forward the inclination of the iron, the deeper and more aggressive the cut. Seems counterintuitive. Don -- I have decided to leave my past behind. So, if I owe you money...I am sorry, but I’ve moved on. The harder they come, the bigger they fall." Ry Cooder |
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265480 | Kirk Eppler <eppler.kirk@g...> | 2018‑03‑16 | Re: fettling a scraper plane: final installment |
On Fri, Mar 16, 2018 at 2:24 PM, Don Schwartz |
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265481 | Claudio DeLorenzi <claudio@d...> | 2018‑03‑16 | Re: fettling a scraper plane: final installment |
I think this will depend on how much you have turned your burr over. If you do excessive pressure, you can curl that burr right over so that it's practically closed over itself, like a wave that has crested over, and you need to lean it almost flat to engage the wood. It's a cutting tool, as your shavings will attest and the so called burr is the blade. The same principles apply as when you sharpen anything, so you need both intersecting surfaces to be nice and smooth. If you're good with draw filing, you can pull off nice long clean strips of steel, leaving a nice crisp edge along the distal edge. Then all you need to do is hone the one flat side of an angle blade (or both sides of a card scraper). Don't forget to consolidate (work harden) the edge after applying a little oil to the edge (old timers used their ear for a handy supply of lube), then burnish it to squash the steel into the "burr". You should be able to easily feel it when you've got one with your fingernail ( and it's a sharp blade which can cut your skin if you are not careful). Thicker blades are totally different and much more difficult (for me anyways). Thin blades (less the 40 or 50 thou) are easiest to do, provided you have good steel. I like the really super thin scrapers I got from Lee Valley in their kit or set of card scrapers. The thinnest one in the set is about 9 thou, and it's perfect for doing what Scott described with shapes because you can easily curl it over to do rounded shapes without having to cut the blade. The most common sizes you find are about 25 to 30 thousandths of an inch in thickness. Claudio |
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265482 | Don Schwartz <dks@t...> | 2018‑03‑16 | Re: fettling a scraper plane: final installment |
On 2018-03-16 3:52 PM, Claudio DeLorenzi wrote: > Thicker blades are totally different and much more difficult (for me > anyways). Thin blades (less the 40 or 50 thou) are easiest to do, > provided you have good steel. I like the really super thin scrapers I > got from Lee Valley in their kit or set of card scrapers. The > thinnest one in the set is about 9 thou, and it's perfect for doing > what Scott described with shapes because you can easily curl it over > to do rounded shapes without having to cut the blade. The most common > sizes you find are about 25 to 30 thousandths of an inch in thickness. For sure. Some time in the 70s I bought several of the Sandvik card scrapers. I liked them so much, I tried to get more, but they were no longer available. Then I bought some other thicker ones ( Record or Marples maybe? ), but have never liked them as much. Ditto for the super-thin LV scrapers. They're flexible to a fault when it comes to flat surfaces. They all take a good edge, but I still prefer the Sandviks. Don -- I have decided to leave my past behind. So, if I owe you money...I am sorry, but I’ve moved on. The harder they come, the bigger they fall." Ry Cooder |
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265486 | Claudio DeLorenzi <claudio@d...> | 2018‑03‑17 | Re: fettling a scraper plane: final installment |
I was also referring to the very thick blades on the LN scraper plane. I have one of the old LV inserts they used to sell, and it’s blade is around 20 to 25 thou if I recall correctly. I checked out the Hammler guy last night for hours!- he of the miniatures! Cool miniature everything- serious talent. Also, in one of his videos it sounds like he was the one who designed the insert for LV? His own personal scraper plane that he demos on his video also uses a thin blade. Thanks Kirk for finding that guy! Your Google Fu is at Grand Master levels, and much appreciated! Claudio |
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265487 | Ed Minch <ruby1638@a...> | 2018‑03‑17 | Re: fettling a scraper plane: final installment |
> On Mar 17, 2018, at 9:44 AM, Claudio DeLorenzi |
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265488 | William Ghio <bghio@m...> | 2018‑03‑17 | Re: fettling a scraper plane: final installment |
> On Fri, Mar 16, 2018 at 7:14 PM Don Schwartz |
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265493 | Bruce Zenge <brucensherry@g...> | 2018‑03‑19 | Re: fettling a scraper plane |
Don, It has been a while since I sold my 112, which was the only scraper I could ever get to work properly. My fault, not the other scrapers. Anyhow, I sharpened my 112 blade (which was an original Stanley) dead straight and used no burr. Angle didn't seem to matter. That beauty would take a beautiful thin shaving consistently on almost anything. I always attributed my lack of success with other types of scrapers with my lack of ability to turn a decent burr. Another whole discussion about which I have nothing to add.... Don't know if this will help, but might be worth a try. Dead straight, sharp edge. Good luck. Bruce Z. Des Moines, IA |
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265505 | sdarring@i... | 2018‑03‑20 | Re: Bought an old bench. |
> Quoting Ed Minch |
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265509 | John Ruth <johnrruth@h...> | 2018‑03‑21 | Re: Bought an old bench. |
Stacey, When you glue it up, do what the restorers of valuable antiques do: use hide glue because it is reversible. About the uneven left end: Maybe he lived a busy life and never found the time to finish off the left end. I can imagine that he often looked at it and said “some day!” John Ruth Metuchen, NJ Sent from my iPhone On Mar 19, 2018, at 9:24 PM, "sdarring@i..." |
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