OldTools Archive

Recent Bios FAQ

278523 Christian Gagneraud <chgans@g...> 2024‑06‑18 What manufacturer: ????in & Shau?
Hello galoots,

I "found" a box of wooden planes recently, most are Mathieson.
1 of them, I can't figure out the marking:
????in & Shau?

Does that ring any bells to anyone?

The unknown marking:
https://groups.io/g/oldtools/photo/264875/3794160?p=Name%2C%2C%2C20%2C1%2C40%2C0

The planes:
https://groups.io/g/oldtools/photo/264875/3794159?p=Name%2C%2C%2C20%2C1%2C40%2C0

Came with a set of plane "soles", weird:
https://groups.io/g/oldtools/photo/264875/3794158?p=Name%2C%2C%2C20%2C1%2C40%2C0

Overcast weather but no rain!
Chris from NZ
278524 Phil Schempf <philschempf@g...> 2024‑06‑18 Re: What manufacturer: ????in & Shau?
A quick search popped up an ad for a plane made by Martin & Shaw, a UK
planemaker-

https://vintagetoolshop.com/products/17-vintage-martin-shaw-wooden-badger-
plane-42950

A possible suspect.

Another site had this bit -

"Quite a commonly found mark on wooden planes.
"Martin & Shaw"
Henry Martin & Thomas Shaw
Birmingham. 1841 - 94
(from Goodman's book, British Planemakers from 1700)"

Phil

On Mon, Jun 17, 2024 at 7:14 PM Christian Gagneraud via groups.io  wrote:
278525 Christian Gagneraud <chgans@g...> 2024‑06‑18 Re: What manufacturer: ????in & Shau?
On Tue, 18 Jun 2024 at 16:01, Phil Schempf  wrote:
>
> A quick search popped up an ad for a plane made by Martin & Shaw, a UK
planemaker-
>
> https://vintagetoolshop.com/products/17-vintage-martin-shaw-wooden-badger-
plane-42950
>
> A possible suspect.
>
> Another site had this bit -
>
> "Quite a commonly found mark on wooden planes.
> "Martin & Shaw"
> Henry Martin & Thomas Shaw
> Birmingham. 1841 - 94
> (from Goodman's book, British Planemakers from 1700)"

Wow, that was fast, thanks a lot Phil and Joshua.
Mid to late 1800's, interesting, got that feeling when I noticed the
hollow on the top of the shoulder. I've read somewhere that this is a
mark of earlier models, newer ones have a flat shoulder.
Of the Mathieson planes from that box, 4 have the "Glasgow &
Edinburgh" mark (from ca 1880 according to
http://www.hansbrunnertools.com/Mathieson2ndedition.pdf).
Looks like I need to buy that Goodman's book. I found a 4th edition on
Amazon for only 90 NZD (cough cough cough).

Thanks
278526 Christian Gagneraud <chgans@g...> 2024‑06‑18 Re: What manufacturer: ????in & Shau?
On Tue, 18 Jun 2024 at 15:56,  wrote:
>
> The last part of that name looks to me like "Shaw."
>
> The set of plane bottoms looks like they belong to two different pattern maker
planes.  Golden if you have the planes.

Unfortunately, I don't have the planes.
The 4 long ones are marked "W. BUTLER", couldn't find anything on
Google about that name. Could be the owner's mark.
The small ones have no maker marks, just the size (3/4, 1, 1 1/4, 1
1/2, 1 3/4 and 2). and a home made 2 1/4.

Thanks,
Chris
278528 Tony Blanks <dynnyrne@i...> 2024‑06‑18 Re: What manufacturer: ????in & Shau?
On 18/06/2024 1:14 pm, Christian Gagneraud wrote:
> Hello galoots,
>
> I "found" a box of wooden planes recently, most are Mathieson.
> 1 of them, I can't figure out the marking:
> ????in & Shau?
>
> Does that ring any bells to anyone?

Looks like an owner's stamp, rather than a manufacturer's mark.
> Came with a set of plane "soles", weird:
>
https://groups.io/g/oldtools/photo/264875/3794158?p=Name%2C%2C%2C20%2C1%2C40%2C0

Those are different radius soles for a patternmaker's plane. 
Interchangeable, as far as I know usually craftsman made. I hope you 
were lucky enough to score the body and the set of blades as well?
> Overcast weather but no rain!
> Chris from NZ

So that is where our wintery weather has been going...

Tony B
still here in Tasmania
278529 Tony Blanks <dynnyrne@i...> 2024‑06‑18 Re: What manufacturer: ????in & Shau?
On 18/06/2024 4:36 pm, Tony Blanks wrote:
>
> Looks like an owner's stamp, rather than a manufacturer's mark.

(Snip)

I yield to Phil Schempf!� That is what comes of reading from the latest 
message received back to the older messages

Regards,

Tony B
278530 Michael Blair <branson2@s...> 2024‑06‑18 Re: What manufacturer: ????in & Shau?
W. Butler... Are you quite certain it isn't W. Butcher? Butcher was an
excellent Sheffield maker of edged tools. 

MIke in Woodland
278550 Christian Gagneraud <chgans@g...> 2024‑06‑20 Re: What manufacturer: ????in & Shau?
On Tue, 18 Jun 2024 at 21:03, Michael Blair  wrote:
>
> W. Butler... Are you quite certain it isn't W. Butcher? Butcher was an
excellent Sheffield maker of edged tools.

Yes, it is indeed W. Butler unfortunately.
278551 Kirk Eppler 2024‑06‑20 Re: What manufacturer: ????in & Shau?
W. Butler is not in my Directory of Sheffield Tool Manufacturers 1740 -
2018.

But then again, neither is W. Butcher.  Gotta ask another bookowner what I
am doing wrong.

https://swingleydev.com/ot/get/67140/thread/#67140

The William Butcher Company was in business in Sheffield by 1821,
was Butcher, Brown & Butcher in about 1828 and became William &
Samuel Butcher by 1833 and continued to 1900 (and possibly longer?).

There is a now dead link on Butcher that says:  (
https://swingleydev.com/ot/get/67274/thread/#67274 )
The extensive entry on Butcher includes

>William Butcher was also involved in engineering projects and worked
closely with the Pennsylvania Steel Co. in Harrisburg (U.S.A.). In 1865 the
same firm employed him to supervise the
installation of several Bessemer converters to produce bulk steel. Later in
the same year William Butcher went to Philadelphia to set up his own steel
works.

The works were opened in June 1867 under his name and produced the first
steel castings made commercially in the U.S.A. Butcher's intention was to
produce crucible steel using the
same methods as were used by the Sheffield steelmen. To achieve this he
used craftsmen from Sheffield to set up and run the works

On Wed, Jun 19, 2024 at 8:46 PM Christian Gagneraud 
wrote:

> On Tue, 18 Jun 2024 at 21:03, Michael Blair  wrote:
> >
> > W. Butler... Are you quite certain it isn't W. Butcher? Butcher was an
> excellent Sheffield maker of edged tools.
>
> Yes, it is indeed W. Butler unfortunately.
>
>
>


-- 
Kirk Eppler in Half Moon Bay, CA 
278552 Christian Gagneraud <chgans@g...> 2024‑06‑21 Re: What manufacturer: ????in & Shau?
On Fri, 21 Jun 2024 at 03:46, Kirk Eppler  wrote:
>
> W. Butler is not in my Directory of Sheffield Tool Manufacturers 1740 - 2018.
>

Thanks for checking. May I ask if you could check the last one?

One of the planes has a "FISHER" and a "R. NIXON" side by side. I have
the feeling it's not the owner's name.
The R. NIXON is as well on both sides of the plane, which looks weird to me.
https://groups.io/g/oldtools/photo/264875/3795163
https://groups.io/g/oldtools/photo/264875/3795162
https://groups.io/g/oldtools/photo/264875/3795161

Couldn't find anything on Google, got a lot of Vietnam war stuff for
some reason... :)

Cheers from NZ.
Chris
278557 Chris Wolf <hframe79001@g...> 2024‑06‑21 Re: What manufacturer: ????in & Shau?
Here is an instance of your FISHER mark, from the Plane Talk journal,, 
spring 1989. Not a lot of help.

https://groups.io/g/oldtools/photo/263870/3795173

--Chris

Check out H-frame, the site for vintage Black & Decker Workmates
https://h-frame.weebly.com/
278559 Thomas Conroy 2024‑06‑21 Re: What manufacturer: ????in & Shau?
Kirk Eppler wrote (order of comments reshuffled):
"W. Butler is not in my Directory of Sheffield Tool Manufacturers 1740 -2018.
But then again, neither is W. Butcher.... "Silly question on the Sheffield
directory: can you see a reason why Butcher is not in there? There are several
references to him being in Sheffield, or in other Sheffiedl partnerships (Ward *
Butcher I think), but none are listed. BIzarre"

I think it must be connected with the same author's earlier Directory of
Sheffield cutlery manufacturers (2013, 2nd. ed. 2018) which I don't have; but
the cutlery volume does have an extensive listing on Butcher, because it is
quoted here
W. & S. Butcher Ltd
Of course, a number of manufacturers who must have had a place in the cutlery
volume are also found in the tools volume;  and I would have expected a cross-
reference even if the author had nothing new to add. However, my own experience
is that when there is nothing left to do in a directory except a large, complex,
important firm on which you have nothing in particular to add... well, I didn't
quite reach the depths of completely leaving out a firm or a person, but I have
come pretty damn close.

Tom Conroy
Berkeley
278560 Kirk Eppler 2024‑06‑21 Re: What manufacturer: ????in & Shau?
In my world, anything stamped more than once is an owner's mark.  i.e.
Ellis on that plane

Nixon is not listed in this directory

Fisher has a few possible entries

Fisher Brothers  circa 1840, no sign of their mark, saw makers,    prior to
1846

George Fisher & Co,  one of the brothers' sons maybe (Thomas was his
father, there was a Thomas in Brothers, birth years sorta match  Tool Mark
was a guy with fish (imagine that), & Geo Fisher & Co  Steel converters &
refiners, Engineers' Files, circular saws

Harry Fisher & Co  Son of Charles (no apparent relation to above 2) mark
was a King over Curved Fisher, with a bird w fish prey.  1889 - 1909 ish
Steel, files saws & tools

John Fisher & Co (see Bromley, Fisher & Turton Ltd)  1868 - 69, then they
started B, F &T) mostly known for files, and steel

So for all of them, not a plane maker in the bunch.

Switching to Goodman's British Planemakers (4th edition, 2020)

Fisher, Harry Brimingham 1901, no mark

Fisher, John London 1790 -1795 This mark looks like your, incised edge on 3
sides

Fisher John Southampton 1851 - 1871  mark J. Fisher, no border

Fisher John Mason London 1851 no mark

Fisher, Thomas London 1820, 1831 - 1834 mark T. Fisher (border curves in on
both ends)

Fisher Thomas Birmingham 1851-2 no mark

Fisher Thomas Taunton 1834 T. Fisher over Taunton

Fisher Thomas Glasgow 1851 no mark

No Nixon in this book either.

Kirk in Half Moon Bay, CA, fighting off work problems to make time for this


On Thu, Jun 20, 2024 at 7:25 PM Christian Gagneraud 
wrote:

> On Fri, 21 Jun 2024 at 03:46, Kirk Eppler  wrote:
>
>
> Thanks for checking. May I ask if you could check the last one?
>
> One of the planes has a "FISHER" and a "R. NIXON" side by side. I have
> the feeling it's not the owner's name.
> The R. NIXON is as well on both sides of the plane, which looks weird to
> me.
> https://groups.io/g/oldtools/photo/264875/3795163
> https://groups.io/g/oldtools/photo/264875/3795162
> https://groups.io/g/oldtools/photo/264875/3795161
>
>
>


-- 
Kirk Eppler in Half Moon Bay, CA 
278561 Christian Gagneraud <chgans@g...> 2024‑06‑22 Re: What manufacturer: ????in & Shau?
Thanks Kirk for your time, some comments below.

On Sat, 22 Jun 2024 at 09:36, Kirk Eppler  wrote:
>
> In my world, anything stamped more than once is an owner's mark.  i.e. Ellis
on that plane

I agree, the mark on the sides have nothing special, but it has an Rt
Nixon mark on the end, in a similar rectangle with incised edge on 2
sides.
Anyway, likely the owner's mark.

>
> Nixon is not listed in this directory
>
> Fisher has a few possible entries
>
[...]
> Fisher, John London 1790 -1795 This mark looks like your, incised edge on 3
sides

Thanks a lot, this one seems to be a match, tho incised edges are
common, and the name Fisher is common too.
The date range makes it unlikely, a plane from that period should have
distinctive features, and my plane looks more like a mid 1800's.
I've tried to narrow my searches with "john" and "London", but still no result.

Thanks a lot for helping out.

Chris

Recent Bios FAQ