As Ed Minch mentioned we were among the crowd at the Williamsburg Working Wood
in the 18th Century symposium last week. Afterwards, my wife and I spent a few
additional days in the area visiting friends and got home last night. To and fro
I looked in on a number of antiques shops w/ some success.

First off was a dowelling plate. The plate sits on pegs atop a box to trap the
pegs as they drop thru. The plate is constructed of 1/4” steel and the box, 3
1/4”L x 2 1/2”W x 2 3/4”T, is made of very hefty 7/16ths steel. The plate has 12
holes ranging from 3/8” down to 3/32nd of an inch. All the holes have a proper
taper of a couple of thousandths to leave a sharp arris at the top edge and ease
the passing of the dowel as it is driven thru. I knocked a few bits of square
stock thru and it works quite well.

Second find is a tap & die set, plus extras. The set is from the American Tap &
Die Co. and I only found one reference to it in a quick web search:

"American" Brand Taps, ... are all made by the Nichols Bros. brand of tools.
Walter E. Nichols was born in Greenfield, MA in 1852; …. Starting in 1902 in
Greenfield, MA., they formed the American Tap & Die Corporation. In 1925 they
combined with the Williamsburg Manufacturing Company to form the Threadwell
ToolCompany that lasted till 1985.”

Included in the set are nine dies and 24 taps. I have not inventoried them to
see what is in there yet, but I am sure I will find something useful since this
purchase at a minimum triples my inventory of taps and dies.

Where this becomes a gloat is that while talking to the proprietress she starts
pulling tools out from behind the counter to ask for identifications, which I
obliged. Then she comes up with a Millers Falls #2 eggbeater in nice looking
shape. She says her husband had not been able to make it work but if I wanted to
try I could have it. Throw in a free MF eggbeater and the purchase of the tap &
die set becomes cheap. The hand crank would not move and there was only one jaw
visible, but I figured it was worth the try. At home, 5 minutes after applying
liquid wrench into the oil holes and the drill was spinning nicely. Filled the
chuck w/ WD-40 and left it to sit overnight. This morning I could work the chuck
enough to see three jaws and some springs in there all askew and a considerable
amount of crud. Took some force to get it off but after that was easy to
dismantle. All the parts are there. One spring looks damaged but will perhaps
still be usable. We will see after I get everything clean and lubed. The odd
thing is this is marked as a #2AG. Randy’s MF website does not show a #2AG;
George’s Basement Type Study of the Millers Falls No.2 Eggbeater Drill doesn’t
show one that I can find; the Millers Falls No. 2 Drill Type Study on
Galoot-o-pedia mentions the 2AG in passing but I don’t see anything to indicate
why a “G”. Oh well...

Finally, I bought some books. A six volume set “The Naval History Of Great
Britain” by William James. First published in 1822, it chronicles the British
Navy from the declaration of war by France in 1793 to the accession of Gorge IV
in 1820. I bought the “New Edition, with Additions and Notes” published in 1859.
It is set in 9 point type to challenge my old eyes and with a total of about
2500 pages, will take a very long winter, or two, to finish.


Pictures are here:

https://www.flickr.com/photos/77280442@N.../albums/72157712803933292/wi
th/49430947926/">https://www.flickr.com/photos/77280442@N.../albums/721577128039
33292/with/49430947926/

Bill

Bill, not gloating about his recent treasures, mentioned:

> "American" Brand Taps, ... are all made by the Nichols Bros. brand of 
> tools. Walter E. Nichols was born in Greenfield, MA in 1852; …. Starting 
> in 1902 in Greenfield, MA., they formed the American Tap & Die 
> Corporation. In 1925 they combined with the Williamsburg  Manufacturing 
> Company to form the Threadwell ToolCompany that lasted till 1985.”

> Included in the set are nine dies and 24 taps. I have not inventoried them 
> to see what is in there yet, but I am sure I will find something useful 
> since this purchase at a minimum triples my inventory of taps and dies.


I would be unsurprised if there are some uncommon items in that set. I await the
details with great interest.


*** This message was sent from a convenience email service, and the reply
address(es) may not match the originating address

Regarding Bill’s antique tap & die set, Erik wrote:
> I would be unsurprised if there are some uncommon items in that set. I await
the details with great interest.
 
Hmm, Erik! You’ve given me something to think about.  ( I have an inexplicable
fascination with obsolete threads and threading systems. )

Sir Joseph Whitworth published his system of standard threads in 1841.

Our modern U.S. threads began with a paper read before the Franklin Institute in
1864 by William Sellers.

The ASME website states that the use of Sellers threads had become widespread by
the 1880’s.

So, the 1902 founding date for American Tap and Die brings them into the United
States Standard era, which yet mean that it could contain some that aren’t
National Standard or Unified National Standard.  Also, Tap & Die sets tend to
acquire “stowaway” passengers who weren’t in the original set!

Sellers threads include fractional machine threads below 1/4”, sizes most
mechanicians now living have never seen.

[ Collectible open-end wrenches from the USS era may bear strange markings, like
a fraction followed by a hexagon, the fraction being smaller than the actual
measurement of the wrench jaws.  These fit the head of a standard cap screw of
the size shown. ( Shades of British Whitworth practice! ) ]

The numbered sizes once went up to #30 !

You can probably find my tale of being inadvertently sold a New, Old Stock
#14-20 die, in lieu of a 1/4-20, in the archives. That happened circa 1993. The
difference between #14 and 1/4 is only a few thousandths of an inch.

There’s also an older standard for the threads per inch on a 1/2 bolt. The
current UNC Standard is 1/2-13, but older machinery will be found to have 1/2-12
threads.

The “SAE” is a subset of the former standard...the “32nd’s” sizes got dropped.

Yeah, verily, a Tap & Die set from the earliest days of American Tap and Die
could have some pieces that would be very useful to an antique tool collector!

John Ruth
Who, just today, had a chance encounter with a 1-1/4 _triple start_ tap in an
unexpected venue.

> On Jan 23, 2020, at 10:56 PM, John Ruth  wrote:
> 
> Regarding Bill’s antique tap & die set, Erik wrote:
>> I would be unsurprised if there are some uncommon items in that set. I await
the details with great interest.
> 
> Hmm, Erik! You’ve given me something to think about.  ( I have an inexplicable
fascination with obsolete threads and threading systems. )

> SNIP

> So, the 1902 founding date for American Tap and Die brings them into the
United States Standard era, which yet mean that it could contain some that
aren’t National Standard or Unified National Standard.  Also, Tap & Die sets
tend to acquire “stowaway” passengers who weren’t in the original set!
> 
> SNIP

> Yeah, verily, a Tap & Die set from the earliest days of American Tap and Die
could have some pieces that would be very useful to an antique tool collector!

I don’t know much about threads, just what I picked up on the list in passing. I
have inventoried the taps and dies in the box and almost all seem to be normal.
The odd ball I see is the 8-40 NS HSG11 taps. One reference I found said HSG is
an Acme thread, but in a number 8 that doesn’t seem right to me. The other
references I found to an 8-40 is for mounting bases in rifles, as in "8-40
screws which are extra-strength for heavier optics”. If you see anything else
exotic in there, let me know. Where the chart has duplicate entries it means
there is a regular tap and a bottoming tap. In the listing of dies the first
five are, I believe, adjustable dies. There are several manufactures represented
so the markings differ.

Bill

DIES -

5/16 18 	USS
3/8	16	USS
7/16	14	USS
1/2	13	USS
7/16	14	NC
3/16
1/4
5/16
3/8
7/16


TAPS -

1/4	20	NC
1/4	20	NC
5/16	18	USS
5/16	18	USS
3/8	16	USS
3/8	16
7/16	14	US Std
7/16	14	USS
1/2	13	US Std
9/16	18	USS
16-20
12-20	AS
12-24	NC
12-24	NC
12-24	ASME	NC
10-32
10-32	NF
10-32	NF
8-40		NS	HSG11
8-40		NS	HSG11
5-40		NC
5-40		NC
5-40		NC

Most of those sizes are pretty standard, in a 60 degree form, but several of the
taps are intriguing. The 12-20 is not quite 7/32-20. Depending on the thread
profile, it could be quite useful. The #16-20  would have been real handy on a
job I did back in about 2005. 8-40 shows up a lot in some older precision tools,
as well as in firearms.


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    On Saturday, January 25, 2020, 12:21:45 PM EST, Bill Ghio 
wrote:
 
 

> On Jan 23, 2020, at 10:56 PM, John Ruth  wrote:
> 
> Regarding Bill’s antique tap & die set, Erik wrote:
>> I would be unsurprised if there are some uncommon items in that set. I await
the details with great interest.
> 
> Hmm, Erik! You’ve given me something to think about.  ( I have an inexplicable
fascination with obsolete threads and threading systems. )

> SNIP

> So, the 1902 founding date for American Tap and Die brings them into the
United States Standard era, which yet mean that it could contain some that
aren’t National Standard or Unified National Standard.  Also, Tap & Die sets
tend to acquire “stowaway” passengers who weren’t in the original set!
> 
> ... (38 lines removed)>
16-20
12-20    AS
12-24    NC
12-24    NC
12-24    ASME    NC
10-32
10-32    NF
10-32    NF
8-40        NS    HSG11
8-40        NS    HSG11
5-40        NC
5-40        NC
5-40        NC

12-20 is the Stanley thread for knobs and totes, etc.

Always a good one to have


On Sat, Jan 25, 2020, 9:43 AM Bill Ghio via OldTools <
oldtools@s...> wrote:

Bill,

Please get out your magnifying glass, and tell us if it’s really GL1 rather than
G11.

The HSG11 might be intended to be read “HS GL1” where the HS indicates High
Speed [Steel] and the G number is an indicator of Pitch Height on a Ground
Thread tap.  L1 means the Pitch Height is Lower than the standard.

There are GH taps with the Pitch Height Higher than standard and GL taps with
the Pitch Height Lower than standard.

Explained, with a diagram, here:
http://tapmatic.com/tapping_questions_class_of_threads_h_limits.ydev

You might wonder “Why?”  In some cases it has to do with tapping holes in pieces
which are going to be heat-treated.  In some materials, heat treating can cause
permanent dimensional changes, so if you want a standard tapped hole after heat
treat, you must tap the piece with a non-standard tap prior to heat treatment.

Your “AS” tap(s) might be “American Standard,” but don’t ask me how this fits
historically with the USS United States Standard and the NS ( also NC, NF,
National Extra Fine, etc. ) National Standard.

With regard to the 12-20 tap and threads on Stanley planes, look through the
OLDTOOLS archive.  Stanley’s oddball rolled thread is NOT of the “National
Standard” (NS) profile.  IIRC, the peaks and valleys are much more rounded.  I
think the archive has something about hand-fitting threads made with modern
12-20 taps & dies to original Stanley parts.

Every time you buy a package of nuts from one maker and a package of bolts from
another, and they fit, you are standing on the shoulders of giants.

John Ruth,
Who says, “Of threads, and threading systems, there is no end!”

> On Jan 26, 2020, at 8:01 AM, John Ruth  wrote:
> 
> Please get out your magnifying glass, and tell us if it’s really GL1 rather
than G11.
> 
> The HSG11 might be intended to be read “HS GL1” where the HS indicates High
Speed [Steel] and the G number is an indicator of Pitch Height on a Ground
Thread tap.  L1 means the Pitch Height is Lower than the standard.
> 
> There are GH taps with the Pitch Height Higher than standard and GL taps with
the Pitch Height Lower than standard.
> 
> Explained, with a diagram, here:
> http://tapmatic.com/tapping_questions_class_of_threads_h_limits.ydev

OK, I think it actually reads HS  G11. That suggests High Speed and G11 means??
Best guess is it is .0055 oversize. I had only said that there are several
manuf. included. These are the only two that are marked P&W — Pratt and Whitney.
Perhaps they had a need for unique taps.

Starting w/ your link above I have spent too much time wandering in the thread
nomenclature wilderness this morning. Found no definitive answer.

> Every time you buy a package of nuts from one maker and a package of bolts
from another, and they fit, you are standing on the shoulders of giants.

And every one of them seems to have developed a chart w/ idiosyncratic
terminology.
> 
> John Ruth,
> Who says, “Of threads, and threading systems, there is no end!”

Amen.