OldTools Archive
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267896 | "Linda & Tom Hall" <l-thall@c...> | 2019‑02‑17 | Screw Head |
I hope this gets through, been a long time since I responded to “Old Tools”. Is there a thread and screw head that relates to Robertson. My memory tells me it had something to do with our “Henry Ford” and he being totally anal about a new and better design in machining. The Robertson is, to me, a better mousetrap. Tommy Hall Amesbury, MA |
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267902 | Brent Parkin <brent@e...> | 2019‑02‑18 | Re: Screw Head |
The Robertson was actually developed for Henry Senior. Something to speed up the assembly line work. The trouble was he wanted all the rights to the Robertson sold to him and at a cheap price. He didn’t want to bargain and walked away only to use Phillips screws. Brent Regina, SK Canada eh! Who just drove two days in lousy weather to get to southern Utah hoping to escape the cold... Sent from my iPhone |
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267915 | Claudio DeLorenzi <claudio@d...> | 2019‑02‑18 | Re: Screw Head |
Wasn’t Robertson drive a Canadian invention? Cheers from Park City Utah Claudio On Sun, Feb 17, 2019 at 8:49 PM Brent Parkin |
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267916 | Don Schwartz <dks@t...> | 2019‑02‑18 | Re: Screw Head |
On 2019-02-18 12:05 p.m., Claudio DeLorenzi wrote: > Wasn’t Robertson drive a Canadian invention? Yup. The company didn't want to give over the rights for US distribution, so their market was mainly - perhaps wholly - Canadian. More for us! Don -- A thermometer is not liberal or conservative. - Katharine Hayhoe A good row does wonders for raising interest, and to be 'good' a row must have something to be said on both sides, and a proper issue in the middle." - Rosemary Hill, 'Writing About the Crafts', in The Culture of Craft, Peter Dormer, ed. Being offended doesn't make you right. |
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267918 | Claudio DeLorenzi <claudio@d...> | 2019‑02‑18 | Re: Screw Head |
Slightly off topic: We had an interesting conference lecture this morning about the loooong and painful process of getting an idea (for a surgical product) from the ‘back of the napkin’ sketch to an actual marketable product (protected by international patents) by an earnest surgeon who’s been hard at it for nine years so far. He might have his product finally available at the end of this year. Given the mind boggling amount of money that people have to risk to bring a good idea to fruition (esp for surgical stuff) it’s amazing that we have any innovations at all. Costs can run into the tens of millions of dollars. It was illuminating hearing about the huge number of professionals —packaging designers to patent attorneys— he had to deal with. I can understand now why big companies prefer to buy a company rather than invest in R&D themselves. One simple misstep can mean that a superior product (Robertson screws are undeniably superior) isn’t available in the USA. Sad. Many such cases. Cheers from Park City Claudio |
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267923 | gary may | 2019‑02‑19 | Re: Screw Head |
Hi Claudio--- I can't imagine the heartbreak of developing and owning rights to a wonderful tool that no one is interested in marketing for you---there's a reason we say "Satanley Tools". So many dreams crushed by one of the first mega-corporations. IT IS amazing that people still innovate.... But I beg to differ with your Robertson screw example: in use they are not 'undeniably superior'm not in in my experience. Handy, yes, when you're doing it as fast as you can, with power and for screw-holding and stabbing in they're among the best. But they are as prone to destroying themselves and their driver points as the rest of the fasteners in power-driving use, and in careful hand tool use---for the ages---a slotted screw is a perfectly fine fastener. The Frearson cross-point of Reed & Prince fame---often confused with the Phillips point but infinitely superior to it----actually did lose out to an inferior system. Meaning Phillips. One might think everyone would get it--- a screw system wherein every driver fit every fastener is the right way to go, even tho it costs a bit more... but no. Robertson screws have been available in the US for as long as I can recall, since the 70s anyway, and they're certainly everywhere now. my 2c gam in OlyWA How horrible it is to have so many people killed!---And what a blessing one cares for none of them! Jane Austen On Monday, February 18, 2019, 12:02:11 PM PST, Claudio DeLorenzi |
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267925 | Don Schwartz <dks@t...> | 2019‑02‑19 | Re: Screw Head |
On 2019-02-18 10:04 p.m., gary may wrote: > a slotted screw is a perfectly fine fastener in your opinion? Don -- A thermometer is not liberal or conservative. - Katharine Hayhoe A good row does wonders for raising interest, and to be 'good' a row must have something to be said on both sides, and a proper issue in the middle." - Rosemary Hill, 'Writing About the Crafts', in The Culture of Craft, Peter Dormer, ed. Being offended doesn't make you right. |
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267927 | Nick Jonkman <njonkman@x...> | 2019‑02‑19 | Re: Screw Head |
On 19-02-19 12:04 AM, gary may via OldTools wrote: > Hi Claudio--- > > I can't imagine the heartbreak of developing and owning rights to a wonderful tool that no one is interested in marketing for you---there's a reason we say "Satanley Tools". So many dreams crushed by one of the first mega-corporations. IT IS amazing that people still innovate.... > But I beg to differ with your Robertson screw example: in use they are not 'undeniably superior'm not in in my experience. Handy, yes, when you're doing it as fast as you can, with power and for screw-holding and stabbing in they're among the best. But they are as prone to destroying themselves and their driver points as the rest of the fasteners in power-driving use, and in careful hand tool use---for the ages---a slotted screw is a perfectly fine fastener. > The Frearson cross-point of Reed & Prince fame---often confused with the Phillips point but infinitely superior to it----actually did lose out to an inferior system. Meaning Phillips. One might think everyone would get it--- a screw system wherein every driver fit every fastener is the right way to go, even tho it costs a bit more... but no. Robertson screws have been available in the US for as long as I can recall, since the 70s anyway, and they're certainly everywhere now. > I agree that the off-shore copies of Robertson screws are too soft and and strip out easily even without trying but those made by Robertson are much better and harder and the same goes for the screw driver tips, they too come in good , med., and bad quality. The good ones are also often magnetic. I have used the same screw drivers for over 50 years and they are still going strong. For power driving I use the magnetic ones because they have that extra bit of hugging power. As long as you hold the driver straight on the screw with a bit of pressure and both are of good quality you won't get a slip. All production screws like Kreg Jig are all hardened screws. Nick |
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267928 | John Ruth <johnrruth@h...> | 2019‑02‑19 | Re: Screw Head |
GG’s Every had a Yankee screwdriver jump out of a slotted screw? Verily everyone who has used a Yankee driver has had this happen, usually to the detriment of the workpiece. OTOH, a Yankee driver works just great with Roberson or Square-Drive screws. For wood screw head esthetics, I agree that slotted seems to look best, followed by Robertson, Allen, Torx, with Frearson and Phillips coming in last. As far as the best grind for slotted, I think Grace gunsmith style screwdrivers take the cake. They have a small parallel-sided grind right at the tip, exactly matching the geometry of a slot. Trouble is, I cannot duplicate this grind by hand on a bench grinder! John Ruth Sent from my iPhone |
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267932 | Ed Minch <ruby1638@a...> | 2019‑02‑19 | Re: Screw Head |
Speaking of big Yankee drivers, in the early seventies I was working with an almost-retired finish carpenter named Joe Shingle, born in 1900. I watched him hanging doors with one of the giant ones - in and out and in and out, I was mesmerized. That weekend I bought a used one at a flea market and showed up Monday morning ready to hang doors. First screw, the bit jumped the slot and put a gouge in the door. He said “you didn't get one with a spring in it did you?” Of course I had because I didn't know anything about these tools. He opened it and took the spring out for me and all was well with the world. |
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267934 | Don Schwartz <dks@t...> | 2019‑02‑19 | Re: Screw Head |
On 2019-02-19 12:52 p.m., Ed Minch wrote: > He opened it and took the spring out for me and all was well with the world. Thus was a superior tool dumbed-down to accommodate an inferior fastener! ( IMO ) Don -- A thermometer is not liberal or conservative. - Katharine Hayhoe A good row does wonders for raising interest, and to be 'good' a row must have something to be said on both sides, and a proper issue in the middle." - Rosemary Hill, 'Writing About the Crafts', in The Culture of Craft, Peter Dormer, ed. Being offended doesn't make you right. |
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267936 | Bill Ghio | 2019‑02‑19 | Re: Screw Head |
On Feb 19, 2019, at 6:18 PM, Don Schwartz |
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267937 | Claudio DeLorenzi <claudio@d...> | 2019‑02‑19 | Re: Screw Head |
Hi Stuck in Chicago ORD catching up on these messages. I should have been more diplomatic about Robertson screws and drivers. Yes there are better modern ones, many different drivers available now for power driving screws quickly. But I grew up using Robertson drive screws (unless we needed to match flat head screws on a repair). Most bone screws in surgery use a Robertson or an improved penta or hex type drive for facial plates and screws, or for orthopedic work ( never even seen Phillips type for surgery). I absolutely agree that slot drive screws look nicer but that’s not what we were talking about. I also have a gazillion flat head drivers, since if it doesn’t fit the slot perfectly, it’s not great (should be able to hold the screw with the driver, so the margin for error of fit is very small). As for cam outs and marring the screw and the work, the quality of both the driver and the screw are important. When using flat heads on something where it will show, I prep by predrilling the appropriately sized hole/countersink, then use a Robertson type screw to seat everything, then take out the ugly modern screw and use the same size screw in a flat head (I always bought full boxes whenever I was in country side small town hardware stores that still had a few boxes in the inventory). It takes longer, but I don’t like scars on the screw or the work. Stanley used to make these great drill countersinks that would make exactly prep’d holes. These work great and last a long time. I’ll find a photo and post it somewhere to share. Cheers from ORD Claudio |
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267938 | Ed Minch <ruby1638@a...> | 2019‑02‑19 | Re: Screw Head |
The no-spring version forces a level of needed concentration because you hold the tip end in the screw slot with your other hand. Works just fine. And I prefer the look of a slotted screw in finish work. But then when I built my house 11 years ago, I paid $3 per pre-hung door extra for square cornered hinges. Ed Minch |
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267940 | gary may | 2019‑02‑20 | Re: Screw Head |
Don Schwartz--- Oh yes, in my 'opinion'-- :) and you know more that most how humble it is! Some may disagree and they may be right. But it's not shit vs shinola. Square drives do the job and do it just fine. Same as slots do. So IMHO, if you like riding donkeys as well as you do riding thoroughbreds, maybe get a donut pillow and take the train. with humbleness--yr pl gam. How horrible it is to have so many people killed!---And what a blessing one cares for none of them! Jane Austen On Monday, February 18, 2019, 11:15:42 PM PST, Don Schwartz |
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267941 | "Marvin Paisner" <paisners@s...> | 2019‑02‑20 | Re: Screw Head |
Gary, Don, Claudio & Galoots, Interesting, don't you think, that P.L. Robertson came up with his screw pattern after badly cutting his hand while demonstrating Yankee spring loaded slot screwdrivers. In over 100 years of use here in Canada I doubt that the Robertson drivers have shed much blood, while more than a few folk, I'm sure, have had a run in with the tip of a slot driver or been cut by a burr raised on a slot screw head. Robertson screws required one less step to manufacture as no slot had to be cut after the head was formed, the head shaping and tapering square socket were stamped on the same machine stroke. The result being Robertson screws cost less to manufacture. However P.L. was able to sell them for more than a slot screw by demonstrating that the Robertson screw when set on the tip of his screwdriver would stay in place, even if you pointed the driver holding the screw to the ground. Robertson was a good salesman. Just fanning the flame, Marv Paisner Kootenay Lake, BC -----Original Message----- From: gary may via OldTools Sent: Tuesday, February 19, 2019 10:11 PM To: Claudio DeLorenzi ; Don Schwartz Cc: oldtools@s... Subject: Re: [OldTools] Screw Head Don Schwartz--- Oh yes, in my 'opinion'-- :) and you know more that most how humble it is! Some may disagree and they may be right. But it's not shit vs shinola. Square drives do the job and do it just fine. Same as slots do. So IMHO, if you like riding donkeys as well as you do riding thoroughbreds, maybe get a donut pillow and take the train. with humbleness--yr pl gam. On Monday, February 18, 2019, 11:15:42 PM PST, Don Schwartz |
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267942 | scott grandstaff <scottg@s...> | 2019‑02‑20 | Re: Screw Head |
Slot head screws are ballet. There is no way to fake it. Round slot heads are the worst (most fragile) I grew up on slot head screws, because even though other styles were available, being a poor kid, it was catch as catch can.................. And slot head screws were pennies a box of 100 back then. The concept of cardboard boxes of 100 screws is deeply ingrained in me. Deep as a dusty scratchy hardware store floor. I resent any other packaging. Even as late as the late 70's they were standard fare for me. Because I was still poor. The entitled were using a lot of hex head screws then. Driving a big slot head screw with a big Yankee spring loaded? That is Baryshnikov ballet. I have seen guys as fast as lighting and secure as a brick with them. I was never that good. But a flat head driver or a flat head driver in a brace, or a small ratchet driver for small screws (no spring). Or a flat head bit in any kind of powered drill......... Those I can still handle yours scott -- ******************************* Scott Grandstaff Box 409 Happy Camp, Ca 96039 scottg@s... http://www.snowcrest.net/kitty/sgrandstaff/ http://www.snowcrest.net/kitty/hpages/index.html |
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267943 | scott grandstaff <scottg@s...> | 2019‑02‑20 | Re: Screw Head |
And now you know why I have so many, and repair, and customize, and make from scratch flat head screwdrivers -- ******************************* Scott Grandstaff Box 409 Happy Camp, Ca 96039 scottg@s... http://www.snowcrest.net/kitty/sgrandstaff/ http://www.snowcrest.net/kitty/hpages/index.html |
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267950 | "Stager, Scott P." <StagerS@m...> | 2019‑02‑20 | Re: Screw Head |
Can someone support a refute a notion I have in my that the actual Robertson screw socket is in fact not identical to the square drive screw sockets we have available to day in the USA? Somewhere in the dusty corners of my brain I have a recollection of reading a discussion of this that pointed out that the USA square drive socket is less precise than the actual Robertson. Thus, the USA square might not actually “stick” on the end of the driver. —Scott On Feb 20, 2019, at 1:20 AM, Marvin Paisner |
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267953 | John Ruth <johnrruth@h...> | 2019‑02‑20 | Re: Screw Head |
GG’s: I’ve posted this before. There is, or was, a standard for straight screw slots which was based on wire gauges. If anyone can come up with a reference on this, I would greatly appreciate it. The intended scope of the standard is unclear; wood screws, machine screws, or both. British or US? Likewise, I can’t recall which of the several wire gauges was referenced. Scott Grandstaff has it right; the only dimensions which are important are the slots of the screws you are driving, which may or may not conform to some standard. That said, I’d like to grind a set of drivers for the US standard, if there is one. John Ruth In Metuchen, NJ, where it is beginning to snow. Sent from my iPhone |
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267955 | Kirk Eppler <eppler.kirk@g...> | 2019‑02‑20 | Re: Screw Head |
On Wed, Feb 20, 2019 at 8:52 AM Stager, Scott P. |
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267957 | "Marvin Paisner" <paisners@s...> | 2019‑02‑20 | Re: Screw Head |
I've wondered the same thing Scott, I've seen ads over the years for McFeely's square drive screws but have never seen one and can't find any patent info for them. Here is the patent for the Robertson. The Robertson's pocket has three wall angles in the socket. Perhaps the USA square drive socket is just a tapering straight wall? http://www.datamp.org/patents/displayPatent.php?pn=116463&id=56456 Marv Paisner Kootenay Lake, BC -----Original Message----- From: Stager, Scott P. Sent: Wednesday, February 20, 2019 8:41 AM To: Listserv Oldtools Subject: Re: [OldTools] Screw Head Can someone support a refute a notion I have in my that the actual Robertson screw socket is in fact not identical to the square drive screw sockets we have available to day in the USA? Somewhere in the dusty corners of my brain I have a recollection of reading a discussion of this that pointed out that the USA square drive socket is less precise than the actual Robertson. Thus, the USA square might not actually “stick” on the end of the driver. —Scott On Feb 20, 2019, at 1:20 AM, Marvin Paisner |
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267959 | Ed Minch <ruby1638@a...> | 2019‑02‑20 | Re: Screw Head |
Interesting tidbit: In 1947, the U.S. government filed suit against the Phillips Screw Company and seventeen manufacturers of Phillips screws and drivers alleging anti-competitive practices dating back to 1933. They were charged with patent pooling, cartel practices, price-fixing, and the suppression of competing technologies. The case, United States v. Phillips Screw Co., was tried in the U.S. District Court of Northern Illinois (Chicago). The case was concluded in 1949 with a consent decree that dissolved the patent pool, likely making it difficult to protect the collection of patents that the company relied upon to protect its intellectual property. In any case, unlicensed companies had earlier begun to produce similar competing designs, some of which were convinced to buy into the licensing agreement. Other manufacturers, however, said that their designs were not based on the Phillips design, but on the older, unprotected Frearson design. In the same year, a final refinement was patented on the Phillips drive system by an engineer from the American Screw Company; that patent expired in 1966. |
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267964 | John Ruth <johnrruth@h...> | 2019‑02‑20 | Re: Screw Head |
Marv, and inquiring Galoots I just went down to the shop and opened a clearly-labeled original box of McFeely’s flathead square drive screws. I hold one in my hand as I tap out this message! The McFeely’s square drive recess IS NOT the same as shown in that Robertson patent. There’s no chamfer angle at the mouth. The bottom of the recess is not a neat pyramidal shape as shown in the patent. Rather, it looks hemispherical in nature. The recess itself has “vertical” walls. I think the Robertson is the better design in terms of getting the driver quickly seated into the hole. John Ruth |
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267966 | Erik Levin | 2019‑02‑20 | Re: Screw Head |
John wrote: > There is, or was, a standard for straight screw slots which was based on wire > gauges. If anyone can come up with a reference on this, I would greatly > appreciate it. > > The intended scope of the standard is unclear; wood screws, machine screws, or > both. British or US? Machinery's handbook has a fair bit of information. The 8th ed (1931), for example, shows the ASME standard slot to be 0.173d+0.015" (d=body diameter)for all head types and screw sizes up to #30 (0.450"). A 1/8" dia (0.125", or #5) would have a 0.037" wide slot. This applies to machine screws. Then you get all of the others: 1/8" dia Button head from Nat'n'l Acme, for example, had 0.025" wide slot, while the same screw from Hartford Machine screw Co. was 0.028". Other manufacturers used different widths, as well. Stepping back to the 5th edition, we find the same rule for machine screws, except for all of the examples that are different. For example, fillister head screws (no reference on the chart: page 771, if you want to look) in 1/8" dia have a slot 0.025" wide, though two pages prior, the size was 0.037 for other 1/8" (#5) screws. Wood screws (page 777) are the same as in the 8th edition. For wood screws, there is less information, but the slot sizes are similar to the ASME standard, but not the same (#5 is 0.036", for example... a #5 wood screw is 0.0014" smaller diameter than a #5 machine screw, BTW), at leas in the Asa Cook Co standard. Other makes differed, of course. More modern sources (machinery's 26th, for example) give diameters for wood screws that are of the same sequence as machine screws (0.013"*n+0.060"), rather than the older form (0.01325"*n+0.056 or 0.01316"*n+0.05784", depending on the time frame &c). The slot width is given a decidedly sloppy range here, a #5 being max 0.043 to min 0.035" (ANSI B18.6.1-1981, Rev1997), allowing even standard compliant screw slots to be a hazard to life, limb, and product. Looking through other sources I have on hand (Engineers Handbook, Kent, Marks, &c), I find similar information, that that I can summarize as there are several standards, manufactures did what they wanted, and, in the end, the ANSI standard (US-ian equivalent of ISO, but it doesn't always play ball with the ISO despite official policy that it does when possible) was designed to compromize and pretty much bracket, in a non-specific and un-useful way, the various prior art. If there were other standards in the past, I do not have ready reference to them in the 60 minutes I am willing to devote to the search right now while I procrastinate before doing a final shovel pass on my and two disabled neighbors' walkways before dark. *** This message was sent from a convenience email service, and the reply address(es) may not match the originating address |
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267968 | John Ruth <johnrruth@h...> | 2019‑02‑20 | Re: Screw Head |
Erik, I don’t think I could have found and coherently summarized that much in only 60 minutes! A lot of interesting material there, like the difference between older and newer wood screw diameters. “allowing even standard compliant screw slots to be a hazard to life, limb, and product.” Oh...there goes any hope of ever creating a set of standard grinding widths for flat-bladed screwdrivers! Scott Grandstaff _still_ has the only viable appproach: grind to fit. John Ruth Sent from my iPhone |
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267969 | scott grandstaff <scottg@s...> | 2019‑02‑20 | Re: Screw Head |
I suffered a bad crash recently so this is the new computer. I finally got my FTP back and was able to post pix of my "planedriver". I made this to drive the chipbreaker screws on planes. If you look close you can see the long slightly hollow bevel grind of the blade http://users.snowcrest.net/kitty/sgrandstaff/images/hometools/driverplane.jpg http://users.snowcrest.net/kitty/sgrandstaff/images/hometools/driverplane2.jpg yours scott -- ******************************* Scott Grandstaff Box 409 Happy Camp, Ca 96039 scottg@s... http://www.snowcrest.net/kitty/sgrandstaff/ http://www.snowcrest.net/kitty/hpages/index.html |
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267972 | "Marvin Paisner" <paisners@s...> | 2019‑02‑21 | Re: Screw Head |
John & Galoots, Thanks for the McFeely's square drive information John. PL Robertson also manufactured and sold, under his name, the screwdrivers for his screw. The tips of these Robertson manufactured drivers are formed to the same shape as the screw socket shown in the patent, including the matching pyramid tip and sides tapering about 10 thou of an inch in an eighth of an inch run. From my observation, it's a safe bet that these days not many Robertson/square drive screwdrivers are manufactured to the original standard. Marv Paisner Kootenay Lake, BC -----Original Message----- From: John Ruth Sent: Wednesday, February 20, 2019 2:07 PM To: Marvin Paisner Cc: Stager, Scott P. ; Listserv Oldtools Subject: Re: [OldTools] Screw Head Marv, and inquiring Galoots I just went down to the shop and opened a clearly-labeled original box of McFeely’s flathead square drive screws. I hold one in my hand as I tap out this message! The McFeely’s square drive recess IS NOT the same as shown in that Robertson patent. There’s no chamfer angle at the mouth. The bottom of the recess is not a neat pyramidal shape as shown in the patent. Rather, it looks hemispherical in nature. The recess itself has “vertical” walls. I think the Robertson is the better design in terms of getting the driver quickly seated into the hole. John Ruth --- This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software. https://www.avast.com/antivirus |
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267986 | james rich <jameslrich3@g...> | 2019‑02‑21 | Re: Screw Head |
Beautiful Driver Scott , did you make that ferrule or was it borrowed from something else ? For some strange reason it looks familiar , but I can't figure out why. On Wed, Feb 20, 2019 at 4:01 PM scott grandstaff |
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267990 | scott grandstaff <scottg@s...> | 2019‑02‑21 | Re: Screw Head |
did you make that ferrule or was it borrowed from something else ? For some strange reason it looks familiar , but Hey James I think I stole it off a garden hose, which is why it looks familiar lol thanks for the kind words yours scott -- ******************************* Scott Grandstaff Box 409 Happy Camp, Ca 96039 scottg@s... http://www.snowcrest.net/kitty/sgrandstaff/ http://www.snowcrest.net/kitty/hpages/index.html |
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267993 | gary may | 2019‑02‑21 | Re: Screw Head |
John Ruth--- I was convinced by a post from Todd Hughes (too long ago, I miss you Todd) that Slotted Screws that'll show should be turned by drivers ground to fit the slots but NOT to reach the bottom of the slots. A gunsmith would find (or file) a driver point to engage the slot's lips as perfectly as possible and to wedge tight just before contacting at the tip--- thus creating a perfect holding wedge action, and minimizing the possibility of slipping out while torquing up the end. So I do that when I'm driving screws that'll show and I have always like the look of slotties. It's unconscious for me, now, but I just realized I choose Yankee slot tips by the same criteria. gluck widdat---Gam in OlyWA How horrible it is to have so many people killed!---And what a blessing one cares for none of them! Jane Austen On Wednesday, February 20, 2019, 9:07:28 AM PST, John Ruth |
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267995 | james rich <jameslrich3@g...> | 2019‑02‑22 | Re: Screw Head |
Well I''ll be dipped, Danged if it aint ! On Thu, Feb 21, 2019 at 2:02 PM scott grandstaff |
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