OldTools Archive

Recent Bios FAQ

267896 "Linda & Tom Hall" <l-thall@c...> 2019‑02‑17 Screw Head
I hope this gets through, been a long time since I responded to “Old Tools”.

Is there a thread and screw head that relates to Robertson.  My memory tells me
it
had something to do with our “Henry Ford” and he being totally anal about a new
and better
design in machining.  

The Robertson is, to me, a better mousetrap.

Tommy Hall
Amesbury, MA
267902 Brent Parkin <brent@e...> 2019‑02‑18 Re: Screw Head
The Robertson was actually developed for Henry Senior. Something to speed up the
assembly line work.

The trouble was he wanted all the rights to the Robertson sold to him and at a
cheap price. He didn’t want to bargain and walked away only to use Phillips
screws.

Brent
Regina, SK
Canada eh!

Who just drove two days in lousy weather to get to southern Utah hoping to
escape the cold...

Sent from my iPhone
267915 Claudio DeLorenzi <claudio@d...> 2019‑02‑18 Re: Screw Head
Wasn’t Robertson drive a Canadian invention?
Cheers from Park City Utah
Claudio

On Sun, Feb 17, 2019 at 8:49 PM Brent Parkin 
wrote:
267916 Don Schwartz <dks@t...> 2019‑02‑18 Re: Screw Head
On 2019-02-18 12:05 p.m., Claudio DeLorenzi wrote:
> Wasn’t Robertson drive a Canadian invention?

Yup. The company didn't want to give over the rights for US 
distribution, so their market was mainly - perhaps wholly - Canadian. 
More for us!

Don

-- 
A thermometer is not liberal or conservative. - Katharine Hayhoe

A good row does wonders for raising interest, and to be 'good' a row must have
something to be said on both sides,
  and a proper issue in the middle." - Rosemary Hill, 'Writing About the
Crafts', in The Culture of Craft, Peter Dormer, ed.

Being offended doesn't make you right.
267918 Claudio DeLorenzi <claudio@d...> 2019‑02‑18 Re: Screw Head
Slightly off topic: We had an interesting conference lecture this morning
about the loooong and painful process of getting an idea (for a surgical
product) from the ‘back of the napkin’ sketch to an actual marketable
product (protected by international patents) by an earnest surgeon who’s
been hard at it for nine years so far.  He might have his product finally
available at the end of this year.
  Given the mind boggling amount of money that people have to risk to bring
a good idea to fruition (esp for surgical stuff) it’s amazing that we have
any innovations at all.  Costs can run into the tens of millions of
dollars.  It was illuminating hearing about the huge number of
professionals —packaging  designers to patent attorneys— he had to deal
with.  I can understand now why big companies prefer to buy a company
 rather than invest in R&D themselves.
  One simple misstep can mean that a superior product (Robertson screws are
undeniably superior) isn’t available in the USA.
  Sad.  Many such cases.
Cheers from Park City
Claudio
267923 gary may 2019‑02‑19 Re: Screw Head
Hi Claudio---
  
I can't imagine the heartbreak of developing and owning rights to a wonderful
tool that no one is interested in marketing for you---there's a reason we say
"Satanley Tools". So many dreams crushed by one of the first mega-corporations.
IT IS amazing that people still innovate....
  But I beg to differ with your Robertson screw example: in use they are not
'undeniably superior'm not in in my experience. Handy, yes, when you're doing it
as fast as you can, with power and for screw-holding and stabbing in they're
among the best. But they are as prone to destroying themselves and their driver
points as the rest of the fasteners in power-driving use, and in careful hand
tool use---for the ages---a slotted screw is a perfectly fine fastener.
   The Frearson cross-point of Reed & Prince fame---often confused with the
Phillips point but infinitely superior to it----actually did lose out to an
inferior system. Meaning Phillips.  One might think everyone would get it--- a
screw system wherein every driver fit every fastener is the right way to go,
even tho it costs a bit more... but no. Robertson screws have been available in
the US for as long as I can recall, since the 70s anyway, and they're certainly
everywhere now.
                         my 2c gam in OlyWA
How horrible it is to have so many people killed!---And what a blessing one
cares for none of them!
Jane Austen 

    On Monday, February 18, 2019, 12:02:11 PM PST, Claudio DeLorenzi
 wrote:
 
 Slightly off topic: We had an interesting conference lecture this morning
about the loooong and painful process of getting an idea (for a surgical
product) from the ‘back of the napkin’ sketch to an actual marketable
product (protected by international patents) by an earnest surgeon who’s
been hard at it for nine years so far.  He might have his product finally
available at the end of this year.
  Given the mind boggling amount of money that people have to risk to bring
a good idea to fruition (esp for surgical stuff) it’s amazing that we have
any innovations at all.  Costs can run into the tens of millions of
dollars.  It was illuminating hearing about the huge number of
professionals —packaging  designers to patent attorneys— he had to deal
with.  I can understand now why big companies prefer to buy a company
 rather than invest in R&D themselves.
  One simple misstep can mean that a superior product (Robertson screws are
undeniably superior) isn’t available in the USA.
  Sad.  Many such cases.
Cheers from Park City
Claudio

On Mon, Feb 18, 2019 at 12:32 PM Don Schwartz  wrote:

> On 2019-02-18 12:05 p.m., Claudio DeLorenzi wrote:
> > Wasn’t Robertson drive a Canadian invention?
>
> Yup. The company didn't want to give over the rights for US
> distribution, so their market was mainly - perhaps wholly - Canadian.
> More for us!
>
> Don
>
> --
> A thermometer is not liberal or conservative. - Katharine Hayhoe
>
> A good row does wonders for raising interest, and to be 'good' a row must
> have something to be said on both sides,
>  and a proper issue in the middle." - Rosemary Hill, 'Writing About the
> Crafts', in The Culture of Craft, Peter Dormer, ed.
>
> Being offended doesn't make you right.
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
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> aficionados, both collectors and users, to discuss the history, usage,
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> OldTools@s...
------------------------------------------------------------------------
OldTools is a mailing list catering to the interests of hand tool
aficionados, both collectors and users, to discuss the history, usage,
value, location, availability, collectibility, and restoration of
traditional handtools, especially woodworking tools.

To change your subscription options:
https://oldtools.swingleydev.com/mailman/listinfo/oldtools

To read the FAQ:
https://swingleydev.com/archive/faq.html

OldTools archive: https://swingleydev.com/ot/

OldTools@s...
267925 Don Schwartz <dks@t...> 2019‑02‑19 Re: Screw Head
On 2019-02-18 10:04 p.m., gary may wrote:
> a slotted screw is a perfectly fine fastener

in your opinion?

Don

-- 
A thermometer is not liberal or conservative. - Katharine Hayhoe

A good row does wonders for raising interest, and to be 'good' a row must have
something to be said on both sides,
  and a proper issue in the middle." - Rosemary Hill, 'Writing About the
Crafts', in The Culture of Craft, Peter Dormer, ed.

Being offended doesn't make you right.
267927 Nick Jonkman <njonkman@x...> 2019‑02‑19 Re: Screw Head
On 19-02-19 12:04 AM, gary may via OldTools wrote:
> Hi Claudio---
>    
> I can't imagine the heartbreak of developing and owning rights to a wonderful
tool that no one is interested in marketing for you---there's a reason we say
"Satanley Tools". So many dreams crushed by one of the first mega-corporations.
IT IS amazing that people still innovate....
>    But I beg to differ with your Robertson screw example: in use they are not
'undeniably superior'm not in in my experience. Handy, yes, when you're doing it
as fast as you can, with power and for screw-holding and stabbing in they're
among the best. But they are as prone to destroying themselves and their driver
points as the rest of the fasteners in power-driving use, and in careful hand
tool use---for the ages---a slotted screw is a perfectly fine fastener.
>     The Frearson cross-point of Reed & Prince fame---often confused with the
Phillips point but infinitely superior to it----actually did lose out to an
inferior system. Meaning Phillips.  One might think everyone would get it--- a
screw system wherein every driver fit every fastener is the right way to go,
even tho it costs a bit more... but no. Robertson screws have been available in
the US for as long as I can recall, since the 70s anyway, and they're certainly
everywhere now.
>
I agree that the off-shore copies of Robertson screws are too soft and 
and strip out easily even without trying but those made by Robertson are 
much better and harder and the same goes for the screw driver tips, they 
too come in good , med., and bad quality. The good ones are also often 
magnetic.  I have used the same screw drivers for over 50 years and they 
are still going strong. For power driving I use the magnetic ones 
because they have that extra bit of hugging power. As long as you hold 
the driver straight on the screw with a bit of pressure and both are of 
good quality you won't get a slip. All production screws like Kreg Jig 
are all hardened screws.
Nick
267928 John Ruth <johnrruth@h...> 2019‑02‑19 Re: Screw Head
GG’s

Every had a Yankee screwdriver jump out of a slotted screw?  Verily everyone who
has used a Yankee driver has had this happen, usually to the detriment of the
workpiece.

OTOH, a Yankee driver works just great with Roberson or Square-Drive screws.

For wood screw head esthetics, I agree that slotted seems to look best, followed
by Robertson, Allen, Torx, with Frearson and Phillips coming in last.

As far as the best grind for slotted, I think Grace gunsmith style screwdrivers
take the cake.  They have a small parallel-sided grind right at the tip, exactly
matching the geometry of a slot.

Trouble is, I cannot duplicate this grind by hand on a bench grinder!

John Ruth
Sent from my iPhone
267932 Ed Minch <ruby1638@a...> 2019‑02‑19 Re: Screw Head
Speaking of big Yankee drivers, in the early seventies I was working with an
almost-retired finish carpenter named Joe Shingle, born in 1900.  I watched him
hanging doors with one of the giant ones - in and out and in and out, I was
mesmerized.  That weekend I bought a used one at a flea market and showed up
Monday morning ready to hang doors.  First screw, the bit jumped the slot and
put a gouge in the door.  He said “you didn't get one with a spring in it did
you?”  Of course I had because I didn't know anything about these tools.  He
opened it and took the spring out for me and all was well with the world.
267934 Don Schwartz <dks@t...> 2019‑02‑19 Re: Screw Head
On 2019-02-19 12:52 p.m., Ed Minch wrote:
> He opened it and took the spring out for me and all was well with the world.

Thus was a superior tool dumbed-down to accommodate an inferior 
fastener! ( IMO )

Don

-- 
A thermometer is not liberal or conservative. - Katharine Hayhoe

A good row does wonders for raising interest, and to be 'good' a row must have
something to be said on both sides,
  and a proper issue in the middle." - Rosemary Hill, 'Writing About the
Crafts', in The Culture of Craft, Peter Dormer, ed.

Being offended doesn't make you right.
267936 Bill Ghio 2019‑02‑19 Re: Screw Head
On Feb 19, 2019, at 6:18 PM, Don Schwartz  wrote:
> 
>> On 2019-02-19 12:52 p.m., Ed Minch wrote:
>> He opened it and took the spring out for me and all was well with the world.
> 
> Thus was a superior tool dumbed-down to accommodate an inferior fastener! 

I have both springed and non-springed. I prefer the springed but where I have
finished surfaces I have learned to reach for the non-springed. But then, I am a
galoot....

Bill
267937 Claudio DeLorenzi <claudio@d...> 2019‑02‑19 Re: Screw Head
Hi
Stuck in Chicago ORD catching up on these messages.
I should have been more diplomatic about Robertson screws and drivers.  Yes
there are better modern ones, many different drivers available now for
power driving screws quickly.  But I grew up using Robertson drive screws
(unless we needed to match flat head screws on a repair).  Most bone screws
in surgery use a Robertson or an improved penta or hex type drive for
facial plates and screws, or for orthopedic work ( never even seen Phillips
type for surgery).
I absolutely agree that slot drive screws look nicer but that’s not what we
were talking about.  I also have a gazillion flat head drivers, since if it
doesn’t fit the slot perfectly, it’s not great (should be able to hold the
screw with the driver, so the margin for error of fit is very small).
  As for cam outs and marring the screw and the work, the quality of both
the driver and the screw are important.
When using flat heads on something where it will show, I prep by
predrilling the appropriately sized hole/countersink, then use a Robertson
type screw to seat everything, then take out the ugly modern screw  and use
the same size screw in a flat head (I always bought full boxes whenever I
was in country side small town hardware stores that still had a few boxes
in the inventory).  It takes longer, but I don’t like scars on the screw or
the work.
   Stanley used to make these great drill countersinks that would make
exactly prep’d holes.  These work great and last a long time.  I’ll find a
photo and post it somewhere to share.
Cheers from ORD
Claudio
267938 Ed Minch <ruby1638@a...> 2019‑02‑19 Re: Screw Head
The no-spring version forces a level of needed concentration because you hold
the tip end in the screw slot with your other hand.  Works just fine.  And I
prefer the look of a slotted screw in finish work.  But then when I built my
house 11 years ago, I paid $3 per pre-hung door extra for square cornered
hinges.

Ed Minch
267940 gary may 2019‑02‑20 Re: Screw Head
Don Schwartz---
   Oh yes, in my 'opinion'-- :) and you know more that most how humble it is!  
    Some may disagree and they may be right.  But it's not shit vs shinola.
Square drives do the job and do it just fine. Same as slots do. So IMHO,  if you
like riding donkeys as well as you do riding thoroughbreds, maybe get a donut
pillow and take the train.
                          with humbleness--yr pl gam.


How horrible it is to have so many people killed!---And what a blessing one
cares for none of them!
Jane Austen 

    On Monday, February 18, 2019, 11:15:42 PM PST, Don Schwartz 
wrote:
 
 On 2019-02-18 10:04 p.m., gary may wrote:
> a slotted screw is a perfectly fine fastener

in your opinion?

Don

-- 
A thermometer is not liberal or conservative. - Katharine Hayhoe

A good row does wonders for raising interest, and to be 'good' a row must have
something to be said on both sides,
  and a proper issue in the middle." - Rosemary Hill, 'Writing About the
Crafts', in The Culture of Craft, Peter Dormer, ed.

Being offended doesn't make you right.
267941 "Marvin Paisner" <paisners@s...> 2019‑02‑20 Re: Screw Head
Gary, Don, Claudio & Galoots,

Interesting, don't you think, that P.L. Robertson came up with his screw 
pattern after badly cutting his hand while demonstrating Yankee spring 
loaded slot screwdrivers.  In over 100 years of use here in Canada I doubt 
that the Robertson drivers have shed much blood, while more than a few folk, 
I'm sure, have had a run in with the tip of a slot driver or been cut by a 
burr raised on a slot screw head.

Robertson screws required one less step to manufacture as no slot had to be 
cut after the head was formed, the head shaping and tapering square socket 
were stamped on the same machine stroke.  The result being Robertson screws 
cost less to manufacture. However P.L. was able to sell them for more than a 
slot screw by demonstrating that the Robertson screw when set on the tip of 
his screwdriver would stay in place, even if you pointed the driver holding 
the screw to the ground.   Robertson was a good salesman.

Just fanning the flame,

Marv Paisner
Kootenay Lake, BC





-----Original Message----- 
From: gary may via OldTools
Sent: Tuesday, February 19, 2019 10:11 PM
To: Claudio DeLorenzi ; Don Schwartz
Cc: oldtools@s...
Subject: Re: [OldTools] Screw Head

Don Schwartz---
   Oh yes, in my 'opinion'-- :) and you know more that most how humble it 
is!
    Some may disagree and they may be right.  But it's not shit vs shinola. 
Square drives do the job and do it just fine. Same as slots do. So IMHO,  if 
you like riding donkeys as well as you do riding thoroughbreds, maybe get a 
donut pillow and take the train.
                          with humbleness--yr pl gam.


    On Monday, February 18, 2019, 11:15:42 PM PST, Don Schwartz 
 wrote:

On 2019-02-18 10:04 p.m., gary may wrote:
> a slotted screw is a perfectly fine fastener

in your opinion?

Don

-- 


---
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267942 scott grandstaff <scottg@s...> 2019‑02‑20 Re: Screw Head
Slot head screws are ballet.
      There is no way to fake it.

Round slot heads are the worst (most fragile)

I grew up on slot head screws, because even though other styles were 
available, being a poor kid, it was catch as catch can..................
  And slot head screws were pennies a box of 100 back then.

The concept of cardboard boxes of 100 screws is deeply ingrained in me. 
Deep as a dusty scratchy hardware store floor.   I resent any other 
packaging.
Even as late as the late 70's they were standard fare for me. Because I 
was still poor.
The entitled were using a lot of hex head screws then.

  Driving a big slot head screw with a big Yankee spring loaded?
  That is Baryshnikov ballet.
     I have seen guys as fast as lighting and secure as a brick with them.

  I was never that good.
  But a flat head driver or a flat head driver in a brace, or a small 
ratchet driver for small screws (no spring). Or a flat head bit in any 
kind of powered drill.........  Those I can still handle
     yours scott


-- 
*******************************
    Scott Grandstaff
    Box 409 Happy Camp, Ca  96039
    scottg@s...
    http://www.snowcrest.net/kitty/sgrandstaff/
    http://www.snowcrest.net/kitty/hpages/index.html
267943 scott grandstaff <scottg@s...> 2019‑02‑20 Re: Screw Head
And now you know why I have so many, and repair, and customize, and make 
from scratch

flat head screwdrivers

-- 
*******************************
    Scott Grandstaff
    Box 409 Happy Camp, Ca  96039
    scottg@s...
    http://www.snowcrest.net/kitty/sgrandstaff/
    http://www.snowcrest.net/kitty/hpages/index.html
267950 "Stager, Scott P." <StagerS@m...> 2019‑02‑20 Re: Screw Head
Can someone support a refute a notion I have in my that the actual Robertson
screw socket is in fact not identical to the square drive screw sockets we have
available to day in the USA?  Somewhere in the dusty corners of my brain I have
a recollection of reading a discussion of this that pointed out that the USA
square drive socket is less precise than the actual Robertson.  Thus, the USA
square might not actually “stick” on the end of the driver.

—Scott

On Feb 20, 2019, at 1:20 AM, Marvin Paisner mailto:paisners@s...">mailto:paisners@s...>> wrote:

Robertson screws required one less step to manufacture as no slot had to be cut
after the head was formed, the head shaping and tapering square socket were
stamped on the same machine stroke.  The result being Robertson screws cost less
to manufacture. However P.L. was able to sell them for more than a slot screw by
demonstrating that the Robertson screw when set on the tip of his screwdriver
would stay in place, even if you pointed the driver holding the screw to the
ground.   Robertson was a good salesman.


---------------------------------------------------
Scott Stager
Columbia MO
573-474-5955 home
573-424-4764 cell
stagers@m...<mailto:stagers@m...>
267953 John Ruth <johnrruth@h...> 2019‑02‑20 Re: Screw Head
GG’s:

I’ve posted this before.  

There is, or was, a standard for straight screw slots which was based on wire
gauges.  If anyone can come up with a reference on this, I would greatly
appreciate it.

The intended scope of the standard is unclear; wood screws, machine screws, or
both. British or US?

Likewise, I can’t recall which of the several wire gauges was referenced.

Scott Grandstaff has it right; the only dimensions which are important are the
slots of the screws you are driving, which may or may not conform to some
standard.

That said, I’d like to grind a set of drivers for the US standard, if there is
one.

John Ruth
In Metuchen, NJ, where it is beginning to snow.

Sent from my iPhone
267955 Kirk Eppler <eppler.kirk@g...> 2019‑02‑20 Re: Screw Head
On Wed, Feb 20, 2019 at 8:52 AM Stager, Scott P. 
wrote:

> Can someone support a refute a notion I have in my that the actual
> Robertson screw socket is in fact not identical to the square drive screw
> sockets we have available to day in the USA?  Somewhere in the dusty
> corners of my brain I have a recollection of reading a discussion of this
> that pointed out that the USA square drive socket is less precise than the
> actual Robertson.  Thus, the USA square might not actually “stick” on the
> end of the driver.
>
>
I have heard that, probably here, but don't have facts to support it.  I
suspect our Canadian correspondents know this answer, with backing data.  I
think the answer is the taper to the socket is slightly different.
-- 
Kirk Eppler in HMB, CA looking for shop time
267957 "Marvin Paisner" <paisners@s...> 2019‑02‑20 Re: Screw Head
I've wondered the same thing Scott, I've seen ads over the years for 
McFeely's square drive screws but have never seen one and can't find any 
patent info for them.

Here is the patent for the Robertson. The Robertson's pocket has three wall 
angles in the socket. Perhaps the USA square drive socket is just a tapering 
straight wall?

http://www.datamp.org/patents/displayPatent.php?pn=116463&id=56456

Marv Paisner
Kootenay Lake, BC


-----Original Message----- 
From: Stager, Scott P.
Sent: Wednesday, February 20, 2019 8:41 AM
To: Listserv Oldtools
Subject: Re: [OldTools] Screw Head

Can someone support a refute a notion I have in my that the actual Robertson 
screw socket is in fact not identical to the square drive screw sockets we 
have available to day in the USA?  Somewhere in the dusty corners of my 
brain I have a recollection of reading a discussion of this that pointed out 
that the USA square drive socket is less precise than the actual Robertson. 
Thus, the USA square might not actually “stick” on the end of the driver.

—Scott

On Feb 20, 2019, at 1:20 AM, Marvin Paisner 
mailto:paisners@s...>> wrote:

Robertson screws required one less step to manufacture as no slot had to be 
cut after the head was formed, the head shaping and tapering square socket 
were stamped on the same machine stroke.  The result being Robertson screws 
cost less to manufacture. However P.L. was able to sell them for more than a 
slot screw by demonstrating that the Robertson screw when set on the tip of 
his screwdriver would stay in place, even if you pointed the driver holding 
the screw to the ground.   Robertson was a good salesman.


---------------------------------------------------
Scott Stager
Columbia MO
573-474-5955 home
573-424-4764 cell
stagers@m...<mailto:stagers@m...>





------------------------------------------------------------------------
OldTools is a mailing list catering to the interests of hand tool
aficionados, both collectors and users, to discuss the history, usage,
value, location, availability, collectibility, and restoration of
traditional handtools, especially woodworking tools.

To change your subscription options:
https://oldtools.swingleydev.com/mailman/listinfo/oldtools

To read the FAQ:
https://swingleydev.com/archive/faq.html

OldTools archive: https://swingleydev.com/ot/

OldTools@s... 


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267959 Ed Minch <ruby1638@a...> 2019‑02‑20 Re: Screw Head
Interesting tidbit:

 In 1947, the U.S. government filed suit against the Phillips Screw Company and
seventeen manufacturers of Phillips screws and drivers alleging anti-competitive
practices dating back to 1933. They were charged with patent pooling, cartel
practices, price-fixing, and the suppression of competing technologies. The
case, United States v. Phillips Screw Co., was tried in the U.S. District Court
of Northern Illinois (Chicago). The case was concluded in 1949 with a consent
decree that dissolved the patent pool, likely making it difficult to protect the
collection of patents that the company relied upon to protect its intellectual
property. In any case, unlicensed companies had earlier begun to produce similar
competing designs, some of which were convinced to buy into the licensing
agreement. Other manufacturers, however, said that their designs were not based
on the Phillips design, but on the older, unprotected Frearson design. In the
same year, a final refinement was patented on the Phillips drive system by an
engineer from the American Screw Company; that patent expired in 1966.
267964 John Ruth <johnrruth@h...> 2019‑02‑20 Re: Screw Head
Marv, and inquiring Galoots

I just went down to the shop and opened a clearly-labeled original box of
McFeely’s flathead square drive screws. I hold one in my hand as I tap out this
message!

The McFeely’s square drive recess IS NOT the same as shown in that Robertson
patent.

There’s no chamfer angle at the mouth.  

The bottom of the recess is not a neat pyramidal shape as shown in the patent.
Rather, it looks hemispherical
 in nature.

The recess itself has “vertical” walls.

I think the Robertson is the better design in terms of getting the driver
quickly seated into the hole.

John Ruth
267966 Erik Levin 2019‑02‑20 Re: Screw Head
John wrote:


> There is, or was, a standard for straight screw slots which was based on wire
> gauges.  If anyone can come up with a reference on this, I would greatly
> appreciate it.
>
> The intended scope of the standard is unclear; wood screws, machine screws, or
> both. British or US?


Machinery's handbook has a fair bit of information. 


The 8th ed (1931), for example, shows the ASME standard slot to be 0.173d+0.015"
(d=body diameter)for all head types and screw sizes up to #30 (0.450"). A 1/8"
dia (0.125", or #5) would have a 0.037" wide slot. This applies to machine
screws.


Then you get all of the others: 
1/8" dia Button head from Nat'n'l Acme, for example, had 0.025" wide slot, while
the same screw from Hartford Machine screw Co. was 0.028".


Other manufacturers used different widths, as well.


Stepping back to the 5th edition, we find the same rule for machine screws,
except for all of the examples that are different. For example, fillister head
screws (no reference on the chart: page 771, if you want to look) in 1/8" dia
have a slot 0.025" wide, though two pages prior, the size was 0.037 for other
1/8" (#5) screws. Wood screws (page 777) are the same as in the 8th edition.


For wood screws, there is less information, but the slot sizes are similar to
the ASME standard, but not the same (#5 is 0.036", for example... a #5 wood
screw is 0.0014" smaller diameter than a #5 machine screw, BTW), at leas in the
Asa Cook Co standard. Other makes differed, of course.


More modern sources (machinery's 26th, for example) give diameters for wood
screws that are of the same sequence as machine screws (0.013"*n+0.060"), rather
than the older form (0.01325"*n+0.056 or 0.01316"*n+0.05784", depending on the
time frame &c). The slot width is given a decidedly sloppy range here, a #5
being max 0.043 to min 0.035" (ANSI B18.6.1-1981, Rev1997), allowing even
standard compliant screw slots to be a hazard to life, limb, and product.


Looking through other sources I have on hand (Engineers Handbook, Kent, Marks,
&c), I find similar information, that that I can summarize as there are several
standards, manufactures did what they wanted, and, in the end, the ANSI standard
(US-ian equivalent of ISO, but it doesn't always play ball with the ISO despite
official policy that it does when possible) was designed to compromize and
pretty much bracket, in a non-specific and un-useful way, the various prior art.


If there were other standards in the past, I do not have ready reference to them
in the 60 minutes I am willing to devote to the search right now while I
procrastinate before doing a final shovel pass on my  and two disabled
neighbors' walkways before dark.


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267968 John Ruth <johnrruth@h...> 2019‑02‑20 Re: Screw Head
Erik,

I don’t think I could have found and coherently summarized that much in only 60
minutes!

A lot of interesting material there, like the difference between older and newer
wood screw diameters.

“allowing even standard compliant screw slots to be a hazard to life, limb, and
product.”

Oh...there goes any hope of ever creating a set of standard grinding widths for
flat-bladed screwdrivers!

Scott Grandstaff _still_ has the only viable appproach: grind to fit.

John Ruth
Sent from my iPhone
267969 scott grandstaff <scottg@s...> 2019‑02‑20 Re: Screw Head
I suffered a bad crash recently so this is the new computer. I finally 
got my FTP back and was
able to post pix of my "planedriver".
I made this to drive the chipbreaker screws on planes.

If you look close you can see the long slightly hollow bevel grind of 
the blade
http://users.snowcrest.net/kitty/sgrandstaff/images/hometools/driverplane.jpg
http://users.snowcrest.net/kitty/sgrandstaff/images/hometools/driverplane2.jpg
    yours scott

-- 
*******************************
    Scott Grandstaff
    Box 409 Happy Camp, Ca  96039
    scottg@s...
    http://www.snowcrest.net/kitty/sgrandstaff/
    http://www.snowcrest.net/kitty/hpages/index.html
267972 "Marvin Paisner" <paisners@s...> 2019‑02‑21 Re: Screw Head
John & Galoots,

Thanks for the McFeely's square drive information John.

PL Robertson also manufactured and sold, under his name, the screwdrivers 
for his screw. The tips of these Robertson manufactured drivers are formed 
to the same shape as the screw socket shown in the patent, including the 
matching pyramid tip and sides tapering about 10 thou of an inch in an 
eighth of an inch run.

From my observation, it's a safe bet that these days not many 
Robertson/square drive screwdrivers are manufactured to the original 
standard.


Marv Paisner
Kootenay Lake, BC




-----Original Message----- 
From: John Ruth
Sent: Wednesday, February 20, 2019 2:07 PM
To: Marvin Paisner
Cc: Stager, Scott P. ; Listserv Oldtools
Subject: Re: [OldTools] Screw Head

Marv, and inquiring Galoots

I just went down to the shop and opened a clearly-labeled original box of 
McFeely’s flathead square drive screws. I hold one in my hand as I tap out 
this message!

The McFeely’s square drive recess IS NOT the same as shown in that Robertson 
patent.

There’s no chamfer angle at the mouth.

The bottom of the recess is not a neat pyramidal shape as shown in the 
patent. Rather, it looks hemispherical
in nature.

The recess itself has “vertical” walls.

I think the Robertson is the better design in terms of getting the driver 
quickly seated into the hole.

John Ruth 


---
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267986 james rich <jameslrich3@g...> 2019‑02‑21 Re: Screw Head
Beautiful Driver Scott ,  did you make that ferrule or was it borrowed
from something else ?  For some strange reason it looks familiar , but I
can't figure out why.

On Wed, Feb 20, 2019 at 4:01 PM scott grandstaff 
wrote:
267990 scott grandstaff <scottg@s...> 2019‑02‑21 Re: Screw Head
did you make that ferrule or was it borrowed  from something else ?
   For some strange reason it looks familiar , but

Hey James
   I think I stole it off a garden hose, which is why it looks familiar lol

thanks for the kind words
    yours scott

-- 
*******************************
    Scott Grandstaff
    Box 409 Happy Camp, Ca  96039
    scottg@s...
    http://www.snowcrest.net/kitty/sgrandstaff/
    http://www.snowcrest.net/kitty/hpages/index.html
267993 gary may 2019‑02‑21 Re: Screw Head
John Ruth---
  I was convinced by a post from Todd Hughes (too long ago, I miss you Todd)
that Slotted Screws that'll show should be turned by drivers ground to fit the
slots but NOT to reach the bottom of the slots.
  A gunsmith would find (or file) a driver point to engage the slot's lips as
perfectly as possible and to wedge tight just before contacting at the tip---
thus creating a perfect holding wedge action, and minimizing the possibility of
slipping out while torquing up the end. So I do that when I'm driving screws
that'll show and I have always like the look of slotties. It's unconscious for
me, now, but I just realized I choose Yankee slot tips by the same criteria.
                             gluck widdat---Gam in OlyWA



How horrible it is to have so many people killed!---And what a blessing one
cares for none of them!
Jane Austen 

    On Wednesday, February 20, 2019, 9:07:28 AM PST, John Ruth 
wrote:
 
 GG’s:

I’ve posted this before.  

There is, or was, a standard for straight screw slots which was based on wire
gauges.  If anyone can come up with a reference on this, I would greatly
appreciate it.

The intended scope of the standard is unclear; wood screws, machine screws, or
both. British or US?

Likewise, I can’t recall which of the several wire gauges was referenced.

Scott Grandstaff has it right; the only dimensions which are important are the
slots of the screws you are driving, which may or may not conform to some
standard.

That said, I’d like to grind a set of drivers for the US standard, if there is
one.

John Ruth
In Metuchen, NJ, where it is beginning to snow.

Sent from my iPhone

> On Feb 20, 2019, at 2:49 AM, scott grandstaff  wrote:
> 
> And now you know why I have so many, and repair, and customize, and make from
scratch
> 
> flat head screwdrivers
> 
> -- 
> *******************************
>  Scott Grandstaff
>  Box 409 Happy Camp, Ca  96039
>  scottg@s...
>  http://www.snowcrest.net/kitty/sgrandstaff/http://www.snowcrest.net/kitty/hpages/index.html
> 
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
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> OldTools@s...
------------------------------------------------------------------------
OldTools is a mailing list catering to the interests of hand tool
aficionados, both collectors and users, to discuss the history, usage,
value, location, availability, collectibility, and restoration of
traditional handtools, especially woodworking tools.

To change your subscription options:
https://oldtools.swingleydev.com/mailman/listinfo/oldtools

To read the FAQ:
https://swingleydev.com/archive/faq.html

OldTools archive: https://swingleydev.com/ot/

OldTools@s...
267995 james rich <jameslrich3@g...> 2019‑02‑22 Re: Screw Head
Well I''ll be dipped, Danged if it aint !


On Thu, Feb 21, 2019 at 2:02 PM scott grandstaff 
wrote:

Recent Bios FAQ